Polk Audio vs. Klipsch syndrome.

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shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Since I've got your attention, what would you say would be a frequency range for adequate bass someone should look for if not intending to use a sub with bookshelf speakers?
That is determined by the kind of content you listen to. If you mainly enjoy, say, harmonica recordings, you don't need to worry about bass extension. If you like full range orchestral recordings, I would aim for something that digs down to 40 Hz at the very least. If you like powerful pipe organ recordings, look for something that can dig below 20 Hz.
 
Ridire Fáin

Ridire Fáin

Audioholic Intern
Since I've got your attention, what would you say would be a frequency range for adequate bass someone should look for if not intending to use a sub with bookshelf speakers?
Any speaker that can get down to 20HZ would not need a sub.
This is the conundrum for audiophiles, almost everything that can get that low is very expensive.

That being said, the majority of full range tower systems are in the 35 and 30 HZ region and many owners of such designs do not incorporate a sub. For what they listen to they get low enough.

A 20 HZ bookshelf design is virtually non-existent. I am sure there is some sort of esoteric, super high end, bookshelf being produced out there. However, I expect it would be some sort cost no object statement piece, like this one. https://pmc-speakers.com/products/consumer/se-series/mb2-se Which is not a bookshelf but a stand mounted speaker.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
Since I've got your attention, what would you say would be a frequency range for adequate bass someone should look for if not intending to use a sub with bookshelf speakers?
That really is up to your taste.

And there's also the question of fall-off. A speaker that is -12db at a given frequency isn't "capable" in that range but it's not silent either. So two speakers that are flat to, say, 80hz, may both sound quite different, though not silent, at 40hz.

I fear we are a bit out of my expertise (or even my general knowledge; which is *usually* where my posts are from). If I knew more than I know I might try to make some "this is a likely area" recommendations; but I'd be talking out of my butt.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
Any speaker that can get down to 20HZ would not need a sub.
I would respectfully disagree on a few grounds. Placement and the effect on midbass from the woofer being two of them. Even if we get past the second (say McIntosh XRT2k or Infinity RSI) we still have the first (though in those cases bass is a separate tower so...)

This is the conundrum for audiophiles, almost everything that can get that low is very expensive.
I'm not sure I agree there either. They are just (generally) not brands we gravitate towards.

There certainly is a price to be paid having two 20Hz cabinets compared to one; but it needed be overbearing.

Now let me contradict myself and also agree with you: They generally are. I think this is a matter of the fact that audiophiles aren't generally emphasizing a desire to get LF response, instead prioritizing all the other frequencies, because they plan to use subs. Only when speakers are getting expensive does the company "throw in the kitchen sink" and build down to 20Hz.

Another problem that raises costs is that it takes a lot more power to run lower frequencies than higher ones; so your crossovers (assuming they are't active) start having to bleed off much more energy to the top-end if the speakers are expected to operation down to 20Hz; and adding more drivers makes the crossovers more complex (compared to the relatively easy active crossover in your AVR)

Heck: My complaint is more often with speakers that try to be as full range as possible when I would prefer they try to be the best they can be above 60-80hz... speakers that, for example, give up efficiency to be flat to 50 when I'm going to cross them at 80; but YMMV

That being said, the majority of full range tower systems are in the 35 and 30 HZ region and many owners of such designs do not incorporate a sub. For what they listen to they get low enough.
Here we do agree.

A 20 HZ bookshelf design is virtually non-existent. I am sure there is some sort of esoteric, super high end, bookshelf being produced out there. However, I expect it would be some sort cost no object statement piece, like this one. https://pmc-speakers.com/products/consumer/se-series/mb2-se Which is not a bookshelf but a stand mounted speaker.
I agree. Such designs are uncommon at best. Even in nearfield monitors (which are designed with the intended use of running sans sub) generally only go down to 50hz or so.

Creating one would mostly be a matter of using the crossover to lower the >20Hz sound down until their flat. Sensitivity would be terrible; but it could certainly be done.

I have active 4-way towers. They are calibrated to drop-off around 35Hz. This is to maximize clean SPL. Because they use an active crossover, I have a second configuration that makes them flat to 20Hz at the cost of volume.
 
Kvn_Walker

Kvn_Walker

Audioholic Field Marshall
This is the last recommendation I'm going to make: Hsu CC-8's

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/ccb-8.html

Hsu is one of the most renown and praised subwoofer brands, so I know their products won't be junk. You want bass from a bookshelf, and a usable 50Hz from those 8" woofers really shouldn't let you down. That page has linked reviews (including Audioholics) with measurements to back up the specs. $700/pair plus shipping.

You get a 30-day trial (have to pay return shipping), but after reading the reviews I don't think you're going to find anything closer to what you're looking for.
 
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LamontSim

Audioholic
Can anyone tell me for a room size of 13L x 10W x 11H, which would be better, an 8" or 10" subwoofer?
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
Can anyone tell me for a room size of 13L x 10W x 11H, which would be better, an 8" or 10" subwoofer?
For 10in, look at HSU VTF1. There is also Monolith 10 from monoprice. Another option is a sealed 12in.
 
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Russdawg1

Full Audioholic
Can anyone tell me for a room size of 13L x 10W x 11H, which would be better, an 8" or 10" subwoofer?
The bigger the sub, the better. Why are you only looking at 10” or 8”? You sacrifice a lot of low end extension by doing that, and you need extension for your theater to hit those low bass notes during a movie other wise your explosions sound like tin cans rattling.
 
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snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
For ported 12in, HSU VTF2 would be ideal. Look at the dimensions of the cabinet and make sure it fits ok. :)
 
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LamontSim

Audioholic
The bigger the sub, the better. Why are you only looking at 10” or 8”? You sacrifice a lot of low end extension by doing that, and you need extension for your theater to hit those low bass notes during a movie other wise your explosions sound like tin cans rattling.
The reason why is the room space. I don't want to overdo it with bass.
 
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Russdawg1

Full Audioholic
The reason why is the room space. I don't want to overdo it with bass.
A well integrated 18” subwoofer will have less presence in your room than a 10” woofer that doesn’t know what it is doing and is distorting off the charts because it cannot replicate a 15hz bass note. That 10” will sound louder than the 18”.
 
Matthew J Poes

Matthew J Poes

Audioholic Chief
Staff member
A well integrated 18” subwoofer will have less presence in your room than a 10” woofer that doesn’t know what it is doing and is distorting off the charts because it cannot replicate a 15hz bass note. That 10” will sound louder than the 18”.
Yes yes, everyone should have 18" subwoofers. The world would be a better place.

All kidding aside, I have an 18" subwoofer that is completely unobtrusive. Anyone who walks into my room would have no idea it is even there. On the other hand, I have two 12" mid-bass subs that, well, stick out like a sore thumb, because they need to be somewhere in the room.
 
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Russdawg1

Full Audioholic
Yes yes, everyone should have 18" subwoofers. The world would be a better place.

All kidding aside, I have an 18" subwoofer that is completely unobtrusive. Anyone who walks into my room would have no idea it is even there. On the other hand, I have two 12" mid-bass subs that, well, stick out like a sore thumb, because they need to be somewhere in the room.
I was just trying to make a drastic comparison. To show the effect of quality on bass/subwoofers. My 18” is the opposite of unobtrusive.
 
Matthew J Poes

Matthew J Poes

Audioholic Chief
Staff member
I was just trying to make a drastic comparison. To show the effect of quality on bass/subwoofers. My 18” is the opposite of unobtrusive.
I understand. I was just teasing.

In general I think that people underestimate their subwoofer needs by assuming that big subwoofers are just for bass heads. Very little music contains a lot of deep bass and that can lead people to think that a small subwoofer is adequate. Afterall, some small bookshelves can produce impressive bass on their own. Yet there is just no denying that an under-performing subwoofer that is distorting can totally ruin an otherwise good system. They call attention to themselves, as you note, and just ruin the sound. Cheap subwoofers really aren't all that capable and little ones more so. Small amps, small cabinets, and small woofers lead to big distortion. While there exist some decent compact microsubs that might work in a small office system, for most people with average sized living rooms or listening rooms a 12" subwoofer is probably a better starting point. Especially with products like the inexpensive Dayton Audio 12" subs. I currently have a 12" subwoofer in my office system that I think is adequate (Ok it's a little overkill for my use, but it's not causing problems).

For home theaters, I actually think a lot of people are under-woofed (shouldn't that be a term!). I've heard a lot of guys who put together decent little systems that include a single 10" or 12" subwoofer of average output and want to upgrade the speakers within a year. Reality is, they just need some more subwoofers. In an average sized room, a single 10" or 12" subwoofer can pretty easily be pushed to it's limits. A distorting subwoofer can totally ruin a system. Toole once noted that the quality and quantity of bass makes up roughly 20% of our total perception of sound quality. Yet...I feel like a distorting subwoofer can suddenly jump to more like 80% of our perception. When its working right, it isn't everything, but when its working wrong, suddenly it's all we can hear (And I don't think we always recognize that is what we are hearing, its not always obvious).
 
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LamontSim

Audioholic
Can anyone suggest a good 10 or 12 inch brand in a budget of no more than $350 to $400?
 
Matthew J Poes

Matthew J Poes

Audioholic Chief
Staff member
Can anyone suggest a good 10 or 12 inch brand in a budget of no more than $350 to $400?
I think this is undeniably the best value in 12" subwoofers on the market:
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-sub-1200-12-120-watt-powered-subwoofer--300-629
The performance per dollar is pretty huge. In your budget, you could even get a pair of them which offers some decent advantages.

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-1mk3.html
good value as well

https://www.svsound.com/pages/subwoofers#1000-series
also a good value, but I'll just say that my opinion is that this is not substantially better than the much cheaper Dayton Audio Sub.

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=24456
these are a stupid good value. A little more expensive than you wanted, but I thought worth mentioning. They are big and heavy for the driver size.

I've actually put together some systems based on three of the Dayton Audio 12" subwoofers that had bass quality so good I bet people would be shocked at the sound quality for the dollar and never believe it was coming from such a cheap subwoofer. I know the owners were both skeptical and shocked.
 
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LamontSim

Audioholic
I think this is undeniably the best value in 12" subwoofers on the market:
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-sub-1200-12-120-watt-powered-subwoofer--300-629
The performance per dollar is pretty huge. In your budget, you could even get a pair of them which offers some decent advantages.

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-1mk3.html
good value as well

https://www.svsound.com/pages/subwoofers#1000-series
also a good value, but I'll just say that my opinion is that this is not substantially better than the much cheaper Dayton Audio Sub.

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=24456
these are a stupid good value. A little more expensive than you wanted, but I thought worth mentioning. They are big and heavy for the driver size.

I've actually put together some systems based on three of the Dayton Audio 12" subwoofers that had bass quality so good I bet people would be shocked at the sound quality for the dollar and never believe it was coming from such a cheap subwoofer. I know the owners were both skeptical and shocked.
A co-worker of mine told me about this brand. I admit I was skeptical about them being of quality because of their price and that until he and now you mentioned them, I hadn't heard of them. Are they internet direct only?
 
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LamontSim

Audioholic
A co-worker of mine told me about this brand. I admit I was skeptical about them being of quality because of their price and that until he and now you mentioned them, I hadn't heard of them. Are they internet direct only?
Also, do you recommend the 10 or 12 inch?
 

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