Polk Audio vs. Klipsch syndrome.

[Russdawg1]

Also, do you recommend the 10 or 12 inch?

Bigger is better, and dual 15” is still within your price range...

I had the 12”. It was good, but with dual 15” subs it would have been way better because headroom and lower bass extension.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Dayton Audio is a sub-brand of Parts express. I consider them a good brand. Not the equal of SVS or HSU, but it's also a lot cheaper. I haven't had reliability problems. The HSU and SVS might be a bit louder, I'm not sure. I don't have comparable CEA-2010 test graphs to compare. Maybe others here know.

In any case, I would get the biggest subwoofer you can handle. I would get the 12" or even the 15".

 

[LamontSim]

Dayton Audio is a sub-brand of Parts express. I consider them a good brand. Not the equal of SVS or HSU, but it's also a lot cheaper. I haven't had reliability problems. The HSU and SVS might be a bit louder, I'm not sure. I don't have comparable CEA-2010 test graphs to compare. Maybe others here know.

In any case, I would get the biggest subwoofer you can handle. I would get the 12" or even the 15".

Thanks for the advice.

 

[snakeeyes]

I think this is undeniably the best value in 12" subwoofers on the market:
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-sub-1200-12-120-watt-powered-subwoofer--300-629
The performance per dollar is pretty huge. In your budget, you could even get a pair of them which offers some decent advantages.

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-1mk3.html
good value as well

https://www.svsound.com/pages/subwoofers#1000-series
also a good value, but I'll just say that my opinion is that this is not substantially better than the much cheaper Dayton Audio Sub.

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=24456
these are a stupid good value. A little more expensive than you wanted, but I thought worth mentioning. They are big and heavy for the driver size.

I've actually put together some systems based on three of the Dayton Audio 12" subwoofers that had bass quality so good I bet people would be shocked at the sound quality for the dollar and never believe it was coming from such a cheap subwoofer. I know the owners were both skeptical and shocked.

I haven’t heard the SVS PB1000 but I have seen quite a few posts this year where people were upgrading away from them. It seems to be a bit of a “gateway sub”. One poster made it sound like he was hearing chuffing or some form of distortion possibly. Maybe it was being pushed too hard. Not sure.

 

[Russdawg1]

I haven’t heard the SVS PB1000 but I have seen quite a few posts this year where people were upgrading away from them. It seems to be a bit of a “gateway sub”. One poster made it sound like he was hearing chuffing or some form of distortion possibly. Maybe it was being pushed too hard. Not sure.

It’s a 10” sub... dunno what they were expecting

It’s also why I recommend HSU over SVS. And Rythmik. Both are much better value.

 

[snakeeyes]

It’s a 10” sub... dunno what they were expecting

It’s also why I recommend HSU over SVS. And Rythmik. Both are much better value.

I’m a little biased since I have a pair of HSU VTF2 subs in my living room and have a Rythmik LVX12 in my small theater room and a Rythmik L12 in my bedroom.

 

[Ridire Fáin]

I'm not sure I agree there either. They are just (generally) not brands we gravitate towards.

I think we may have made the same observation, I am just stating it more broadly. People will puff out there chests if hey own and Wilsons or Avalon Acoustics, but purchase something like an Legacy Focus I find folks will look down their noses at ya. It seems if you like the sound of a Legacy you are somehow less refined in your tastes.

Heck: My complaint is more often with speakers that try to be as full range as possible when I would prefer they try to be the best they can be above 60-80hz... speakers that, for example, give up efficiency to be flat to 50 when I'm going to cross them at 80; but YMMV[/QUOTE]

LOL. The concerns I have are 180 degrees from yours. I get frustrated with the darlings of the industry because most esoteric designs roll off between 40 and 30 hertz . I wish in worst way for a design that can get past 30 Hz. I am willing to settle for little less extension and nuance in the treble, just give me the bass.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

I'm not sure I agree there either. They are just (generally) not brands we gravitate towards.

I think we may have made the same observation, I am just stating it more broadly. People will puff out there chests if hey own and Wilsons or Avalon Acoustics, but purchase something like an Legacy Focus I find folks will look down their noses at ya. It seems if you like the sound of a Legacy you are somehow less refined in your tastes.

Heck: My complaint is more often with speakers that try to be as full range as possible when I would prefer they try to be the best they can be above 60-80hz... speakers that, for example, give up efficiency to be flat to 50 when I'm going to cross them at 80; but YMMV

LOL. The concerns I have are 180 degrees from yours. I get frustrated with the darlings of the industry because most esoteric designs roll off between 40 and 30 hertz . I wish in worst way for a design that can get past 30 Hz. I am willing to settle for little less extension and nuance in the treble, just give me the bass.[/QUOTE]

Just add subwoofers. It's a far better solution. The ideal location for a speaker that maximizes its soundstage and spaciousness are necessarily a compromise location for bass. Not only do they poorly couple with the room modes, but that location always causes SBIR effects. Often right in the kickdrum area between 50 and 150hz. The best scenario is to pull the speakers out farther from the wall which lowers the front wall SBIR cancelation and then place subwoofers against a boundary to operate over that zone. That removes the SBIR effect and improves the "coupling" to the room. Better yet, use more than one subwoofer. For folks looking for a more audiophile approach or who prefer stereo bass (for which there actually is good evidence to support), I suggest people look at David Griesinger's work and follow his suggestions. His simplest trick is to use a pair of subwoofers on either side of the listener at the extremes of the room. This maximizes the side to side pressure differences, interacts with the room the best, and thus maximizes our perception of LF spaciousness.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=2ahUKEwjkoM3j6q7fAhVBXqwKHeHFAGkQFjAAegQIABAC&url=http://www.davidgriesinger.com/spatialization_and_loc.doc&usg=AOvVaw1yz0_9WxdrHnlKsTrXie6U


I see no reason for the mains in a system to have good bass on their own. It isn't a problem if they do, but only when the speaker is a no-compromise design and this is simply being used as additional LF sources.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

I haven’t heard the SVS PB1000 but I have seen quite a few posts this year where people were upgrading away from them. It seems to be a bit of a “gateway sub”. One poster made it sound like he was hearing chuffing or some form of distortion possibly. Maybe it was being pushed too hard. Not sure.

@shadyJ has tested a lot more of these subwoofers than I have, and heard probably all of them. Based on the test data I found and acknowledging the inability to compare across different tests, it is my opinion that all of these 10" ported subwoofers are the same, and that the 12" sealed subwoofers are still in a similar ballpark, with more of the midbass output and less of the lower end output. With that being true, all that really matters is which sub provides the most output in the range a person cares about for the least money. I think the Dayton 12" sub I suggested probably meets that criteria, but certainly it's quality is probably not the equal of the others.

People upgrading is probably not a knock on those subs, just the fact that most people underestimate their bass needs. I think any of us who have gone down this upgrade path before have always come to the same basic conclusion, you are better off getting more subwoofer than you need.

I think there is good reason for this, I think that a distorting subwoofer, even one that is just starting to overload in your day to day use, had a more profound effect than it should. Where bass generally only accounts for about 20% of our overall perception of sound quality, the overloading subwoofer can dramatically swamp our perception. I don't have numbers, the research doesn't exist, so my made up on the spot statistic is 90%. I think in general once something starts to overload, it stands out so intensely that it becomes the majority of how we perceive the sound quality of that system.

Small ported subwoofers tend to chuff sooner than larger ported subwoofers because their dynamic limits are lower (and their ports are often necessarily smaller in diameter). Especially true when we are talking about budget subs. Unfortunately, for $500, there are no big high output subwoofers available. The closest option would be to build a cheap DIY subwoofer, and even then, it would be pushing that budget.

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/LV12F.html
This sub exceeds the $500 budget a bit, it's at least a 12" ported model. I would be surprised if it had that much more output than these other options, but it might. I'm sure it's a good value.

To really move up from any of these things you would need to just go big. A cheap 18" pro driver in a large ported enclosure tuned really low, for example. Like Matt Grant's V.B.S.S. subwoofer, or even the one I built (which used a better driver and different enclosure). But of course, who wants a 30" cube in their room.

 

[Ridire Fáin]

Just add subwoofers. It's a far better solution. The ideal location for a speaker that maximizes its soundstage and spaciousness are necessarily a compromise location for bass. Not only do they poorly couple with the room modes, but that location always causes SBIR effects. Often right in the kickdrum area between 50 and 150hz. The best scenario is to pull the speakers out farther from the wall which lowers the front wall SBIR cancelation and then place subwoofers against a boundary to operate over that zone. That removes the SBIR effect and improves the "coupling" to the room. Better yet, use more than one subwoofer. For folks looking for a more audiophile approach or who prefer stereo bass (for which there actually is good evidence to support),I suggest people look at David Griesinger's work and follow his suggestions. His simplest trick is to use a pair of subwoofers on either side of the listener at the extremes of the room. This maximizes the side to side pressure differences, interacts with the room the best, and thus maximizes our perception of LF spaciousness.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct..._and_loc.doc&usg=AOvVaw1yz0_9WxdrHnlKsTrXie6U


I see no reason for the mains in a system to have good bass on their own. It isn't a problem if they do, but only when the speaker is a no-compromise design and this is simply being used as additional LF sources.

I see your point. In a secondary system I have a pair of speakers from a fairly notable designer that uses pretty high end drivers from i believe Dynaudio and Scanspeak. The intereisting thing about this system is they are more efficient system than the one in main. Have a Frequency range down to 25 HZ and versus 29HZ. But the lowend is are only handled by a pair of 6 inch woofers. Should be enough cone area to get the extension but it is not. They little guys do not move enough are so I had to get a sub.


This brings me to a question? How do you dial it in so the crossover frequency and set it so driver of the sub is in phase. I ask, because I never seem to get it right. It is a two channel system they are in so there is no DSP to help me to correct for the room or assist with the bass management. When setting it I seem to have a bit smearing as the mains trade off to the subs. The result is the system seems to lack some articulation.
The sub is a servo controlled Velodyne Optimum 10. Pretty lite on its feet so it handles the transients well.

 

[everettT]

I see your point. In a secondary system I have a pair of speakers from a fairly notable designer that uses pretty high end drivers from i believe Dynaudio and Scanspeak. The intereisting thing about this system is they are more efficient system than the one in main. Have a Frequency range down to 25 HZ and versus 29HZ. But the lowend is are only handled by a pair of 6 inch woofers. Should be enough cone area to get the extension but it is not. They little guys do not move enough are so I had to get a sub.


This brings me to a question? How do you dial it in so the crossover frequency and set it so driver of the sub is in phase. I ask, because I never seem to get it right. It is a two channel system they are in so there is no DSP to help me to correct for the room or assist with the bass management. When setting it I seem to have a bit smearing as the mains trade off to the subs. The result is the system seems to lack some articulation.
The sub is a servo controlled Velodyne Optimum 10. Pretty lite on its feet so it handles the transients well.

Are your mains and sub of the same roll off? Mixing ported and sealed in general is a little more difficult and requires some more thought. Unfortunately with AVRs and prepros there are only a handful with selectable crossover slopes.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

I see your point. In a secondary system I have a pair of speakers from a fairly notable designer that uses pretty high end drivers from i believe Dynaudio and Scanspeak. The intereisting thing about this system is they are more efficient system than the one in main. Have a Frequency range down to 25 HZ and versus 29HZ. But the lowend is are only handled by a pair of 6 inch woofers. Should be enough cone area to get the extension but it is not. They little guys do not move enough are so I had to get a sub.


This brings me to a question? How do you dial it in so the crossover frequency and set it so driver of the sub is in phase. I ask, because I never seem to get it right. It is a two channel system they are in so there is no DSP to help me to correct for the room or assist with the bass management. When setting it I seem to have a bit smearing as the mains trade off to the subs. The result is the system seems to lack some articulation.
The sub is a servo controlled Velodyne Optimum 10. Pretty lite on its feet so it handles the transients well.

Check out this:

And

I cover this topic in both. The short answer is you need measurements.

You don’t actually need a high pass filter on the mains. It works better if you run the mains full range as long as they can handle the dynamics and you have enough power. For 2-channel this is typically the case.

 

[KEW]

I haven’t heard the SVS PB1000 but I have seen quite a few posts this year where people were upgrading away from them. It seems to be a bit of a “gateway sub”. One poster made it sound like he was hearing chuffing or some form of distortion possibly. Maybe it was being pushed too hard. Not sure.

IMHO, the problem is the $500 PB1000 is tuned to a pretty low frequency for a 10" ported sub and has no provision for tuning it to your room:

• Freq. Response | 19-270 Hz ±3dB

The problem is if you put this sub against a wall or in a corner, the amount of room gain you will typically get results in exaggerated bass in the bottom octave which is one of the worst things you can do to music!
The true objective is to get flat frequency response down to 20Hz in your room, which is rarely the same as flat response in an anechoic chamber!

Compare that with the $400 10" Hsu VTF-1 Mk3 which is also capable of being tuned low ... +/-2dB at 22Hz, However, it has the ability to tune the sub to your room via 3 different port settings, 2 EQ settings and a knob for "Q". That pretty much ensures you can tune this sub reasonably well to compensate for room gain.

Audyssey can sometimes help with compensating for room gain, but IME, the amount of room gain exceeded what Audyssey is capable of compensating for. This experience is with a pair of JL Audio e112 which are 12" sealed subs with DSP to result in a flat FR into the low 20's. I suspect, with the addition of miniDSP, I could cut the bass enough to get the e112's sounding good, but I have a tough time paying so much for a sub powerful enough to perform so low/strong as these do (for compact subs),only to pay more (in money and time) to get rid of that low end capability.
In my case, dual ($150/ea) SUB-1200's easily outperformed dual ($2000/ea) e112's. The SUB-1200 does not have any ability to tune, but it seems, either by design or dumb luck Dayton Audio ended up with a FR curve that is pretty good after room gain in my room and allows Audyssey to tune the bass with good success! - YMMV!

My conclusion:
Avoid the PB1000 (I think the higher level SVS subs offer better ability to tune, so just know to stay away from their low end products),
If you can afford the Hsu, get it for the tunability.
If you can't, get (ideally dual) SUB1200's and hope it matches your room reasonably well. I feel it is likely to be a better fit than the PB1000, and if you are going to have errors, I'd rather they be insufficient bass than to be locked into too much bass.
And just to contradict myself, the combination of miniDSP/mic/REW would allow the PB1000 to be properly tuned and it is better to be turning down the bass (as you are most likely to with the PB1000) than to be trying to increase the output (as you are more likely to with the SUB1200).

The question of dual SUB1200's vs a single Hsu is a difficult one to answer. Based on my positive experience with the SUB1200 (in my and in my GF's rooms),I would go for a pair.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I see your point. In a secondary system I have a pair of speakers from a fairly notable designer that uses pretty high end drivers from i believe Dynaudio and Scanspeak. The intereisting thing about this system is they are more efficient system than the one in main. Have a Frequency range down to 25 HZ and versus 29HZ. But the lowend is are only handled by a pair of 6 inch woofers. Should be enough cone area to get the extension but it is not. They little guys do not move enough are so I had to get a sub.


This brings me to a question? How do you dial it in so the crossover frequency and set it so driver of the sub is in phase. I ask, because I never seem to get it right. It is a two channel system they are in so there is no DSP to help me to correct for the room or assist with the bass management. When setting it I seem to have a bit smearing as the mains trade off to the subs. The result is the system seems to lack some articulation.
The sub is a servo controlled Velodyne Optimum 10. Pretty lite on its feet so it handles the transients well.

Keep in mind that the drivers diameter isn’t a good indication of low end extension. That’s more a function of the drivers spec combined with the enclosure and tuning. Kind of like even if you had 10 subs in a room that roll at say 28hz, they will never have any useable output at 20hz. They just don’t have the frequency response. I like big/more drivers in mains because IMO they are better at delivering dynamics and are usually more sensitive and easier to drive.

If you don’t have a way to measure(rew and mix) and eq a system, a cheap n dirty way is to play your white noise and flip the polarity and note which way has more output. That should get you an idea of a good phase relationship.
You can also play a test tone at the XO frequency and note the output with an spl meter(apps IMO are not the same but should get you close). Then play a tone at 10hz below, and 10hz above and note the spl. If you have a dip at the XO frequency try adding a foot at a time to the distance in the AVR. That is a pretty common way to fix dips there. It can also help impulse response, which is effective at “tightening” the bass up. If you have a variable phase knob, it can also be used to try and do the same thing.

 

[davedaring]

If interested, the
Infinity R-162 s are still on sale for $179

 

[John Clement]

Philharmonic Audio for the AA+ Monitors.

Ascend Acoustics for the CBM170s.

Both are American made. East Coast for Philharmonic Audio and West Coast for Ascend Acoustics. Both are very well respected companies and you can actually talk with the person who makes them for both companies. Dennis at Philharmonic Audio and Dave at Ascend Acoustics are both amazing engineers and fantastic people to talk with.

If you was going to buy two or three pair of above mentioned suspended from the ceiling running a sub :: which ones mentioned would you buy ?


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[Russdawg1]

If you was going to buy two or three pair of above mentioned suspended from the ceiling running a sub :: which ones mentioned would you buy ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I’m guessing for Atmos? In that case I’d actually choose Ascend’s HTM-200’s. Much shallower so they don’t come out nearly as far as the others and also are sealed so you don’t need space behind for a port to breath.

But if you don’t want the HTM-200’s then it’s really a tossup. The minute differences and advantages to either won’t be noticeable in an Atmos configuration

 

[John Clement]

I’m guessing for Atmos? In that case I’d actually choose Ascend’s HTM-200’s. Much shallower so they don’t come out nearly as far as the others and also are sealed so you don’t need space behind for a port to breath.

But if you don’t want the HTM-200’s then it’s really a tossup. The minute differences and advantages to either won’t be noticeable in an Atmos configuration

Actually for my garage for music


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[John Clement]

IMHO, the problem is the $500 PB1000 is tuned to a pretty low frequency for a 10" ported sub and has no provision for tuning it to your room:

• Freq. Response | 19-270 Hz ±3dB

The problem is if you put this sub against a wall or in a corner, the amount of room gain you will typically get results in exaggerated bass in the bottom octave which is one of the worst things you can do to music!
The true objective is to get flat frequency response down to 20Hz in your room, which is rarely the same as flat response in an anechoic chamber!

Compare that with the $400 10" Hsu VTF-1 Mk3 which is also capable of being tuned low ... +/-2dB at 22Hz, However, it has the ability to tune the sub to your room via 3 different port settings, 2 EQ settings and a knob for "Q". That pretty much ensures you can tune this sub reasonably well to compensate for room gain.

Audyssey can sometimes help with compensating for room gain, but IME, the amount of room gain exceeded what Audyssey is capable of compensating for. This experience is with a pair of JL Audio e112 which are 12" sealed subs with DSP to result in a flat FR into the low 20's. I suspect, with the addition of miniDSP, I could cut the bass enough to get the e112's sounding good, but I have a tough time paying so much for a sub powerful enough to perform so low/strong as these do (for compact subs),only to pay more (in money and time) to get rid of that low end capability.
In my case, dual ($150/ea) SUB-1200's easily outperformed dual ($2000/ea) e112's. The SUB-1200 does not have any ability to tune, but it seems, either by design or dumb luck Dayton Audio ended up with a FR curve that is pretty good after room gain in my room and allows Audyssey to tune the bass with good success! - YMMV!

My conclusion:
Avoid the PB1000 (I think the higher level SVS subs offer better ability to tune, so just know to stay away from their low end products),
If you can afford the Hsu, get it for the tunability.
If you can't, get (ideally dual) SUB1200's and hope it matches your room reasonably well. I feel it is likely to be a better fit than the PB1000, and if you are going to have errors, I'd rather they be insufficient bass than to be locked into too much bass.
And just to contradict myself, the combination of miniDSP/mic/REW would allow the PB1000 to be properly tuned and it is better to be turning down the bass (as you are most likely to with the PB1000) than to be trying to increase the output (as you are more likely to with the SUB1200).

The question of dual SUB1200's vs a single Hsu is a difficult one to answer. Based on my positive experience with the SUB1200 (in my and in my GF's rooms),I would go for a pair.

I did the exact same. Two JBL 12” at 199 each sound better than my HSU in my setting ..


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[Russdawg1]

Actually for my garage for music


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Oh well... then you’ll have to ask someone who’s heard both.

Both are extremely neutral with a very flat response.

Both extend pretty low, the advantage going to the AA+ Monitors

But you do know that the AA+ Monitors have been discontinued right?

So there’s that to add in to the equation lol.

But the tweeter on the Ascends is very nice but revealing (meaning you put poop content in, you get poop content out). The AA+ Monitors are pretty detailed also, but a little more forgiving.

But yeah it’s kind of impossible to get the AA+ Monitors. So the CBM170’s win by default!