Newbie looking for advice

[Brian.M]

Hello everyone. I have a few questions and I was hoping to get some advice. First here's my equipment:

AV Receiver: Yamaha RX-V479
Front Left and Right speakers: Elac Debut 2.0 F6.2
Center speaker: Elac Debut 2.0 C6.2
Surround left and right speakers: Elac Debut 2.0 B6.2
Subwoofer: Elac Debut 2.0 Sub3030

Question 1: Is my Yamaha AV receiver adequate for powering my new Elac Debut 2.0 speakers?

I've got everything connected and the speakers sound much better than my old ones (Energy 5.1 Take Classic). But I'm having a problem with the subwoofer. My sub has no "oomph" whatsoever. Even during loud explosive movies. It also seems to turn on and off randomly (the display on the front of my AV receiver shows Sub lit up randomly on and off).

I believe I have everything wired up correctly. But I'm not sure what to do with the app that controls my sub. I ran the auto EQ and that's pretty much it. It has settings for phase and delay but I'm pretty clueless. Can't find any tutorial or instructions for this app.

I ran the YPAO calibration setup thing on my AV receiver.

Question 2: Is there more configuring or setup I need to do?

Any advice or suggestions would be appreciated. If I need to provide more info please let me know.

 

[ryanosaur]

Hi B.
What size is the room: LxWxH?
I've heard pretty good things about ELAC speakers but have almost no experience with them. But as far as power, the fronts are rated for up to 140 RMS, IIRC. Looks like your receiver is rated at 80w per channel stereo, so i'd guess all channels driven, maybe putting out around 50 (60 tops). Should be fine unless you're trying to push reference levels.

All that said, Subs are very much dependant on room size, as opposed to speakers which are more dependent on listening distance.

Not being super familiar with Yamaha products, I can't really advise you on how to tweak it, but there are probably some things you could do without damaging anything. Note down all the settings and tweak them a bit. You can always put them back, or run the calibration again.

 

[lovinthehd]

Q1 At the loudest levels you like to listen at are you having issues with the audio now? What is the master volume control reading at the loudest you like? How far away do you sit from the speakers? Does the avr shut down and go into protection mode at loudest levels? Does it sound bad?

I've read some Elac speakers have some low impedance swings but don't see measurements for yours (altho apparently are forthcoming per this article). You don't have a full set of preouts so if you want more power you'll need to get a more powerful avr or an avr with pre-outs so you can use external amps.

Q2 Running the sub's eq before YPAO would be normal. Phase with one sub up with the fronts typically would be set at 0 (is yours variable phase or just 0/180?). As Ryan said, volume of room has a lot to do with sub performance as well as how you locate the sub in the room. Haven't seen much feedback on Elac subs but they're generally not known for them OTOH. There are higher performing subs for sure.

Have you read some of the basic setup articles here at AH?

 

[Kvn_Walker]

Wow, I just looked up that sub. No onboard controls whatsoever. I weep for the future.

I think first thing you need to do is ensure the sub is not defective or anything. Disable the auto-EQ on the phone app and the receiver and use a manual EQ that emphasizes bass. Then play some tones or music to verify it's working like it should.

If you can establish that the sub is working, then try the room EQ for the sub by itself, test it, and then the receiver EQ. Find out where the bass is being lost. Also, which phone do you have? Always a chance its microphone is the weak link when doing the EQ through the app.

 

[Brian.M]

Thanks for the replies. I really appreciate it.

My room size is 20ft x 20ft x 8ft. Small closed box. Sub and speaker positioning isn't perfect but should be good enough. I didn't think the sub was defective because when I ran auto EQ it shook the house. During loud explosive movies though it seems like the only bass I'm hearing is from my floorstanding speakers.

I'm guessing the YPAO calibration might have borked the job. Or maybe I have a setting wrong in the phone app for the sub. But I am a complete noob. I also did not read the basic setup articles yet. I apologize. I will look for those and read them today!

In the mean time here are the settings on my AVR:

Speaker > configuration:
Subwoofer: Use Front: Large Center: Large Surround: Large Crossover: 40Hz Subwoofer Phase: Normal Extra Bass: Off Virtual Cinema Front: Off

Speaker > Distance:
Unit: Feet Front L: 9.4ft Front R: 8.4ft Center: 8.8ft Surround L: 13.8ft Surround R: 10.8ft Subwoofer: 1ft (this is wrong for sure)

Speaker > Level:
Front L: -7.0 dB Front R: -7.0 dB Center: -6.5 dB Surround L: -4.5 dB Surround R: -5.5 dB Subwoofer +10.0 dB

Speaker > Equalizer:
EQ select: PEQ (everything is greyed out)

HDMI > Configuration: (confused about what these settings do. I am using a PC via HDMI)
HDMI Control: OFF Standby Through: OFF
Audio Output > Amp: On HDMI Out TV: Off

Sound > DSP Parameter: Cinema DSP 3D Mode: On Panorama: Off Center Width: 3 Dimensions: 0 Center Image: 0.3

Sound > Volume: Scale: dB Dynamic Range: Maximum Max Volume: +16.5 dB Initial Volume: Off

***Phone app settings for Sub control:

EQ Mode: Flat, Cinema, Night, Music
Phase: 0 (can be set from 0 to 360)
Delay: 0 (can be set from 0 to 20ms)
Auto Off/On Threshold: 10mV (can be set from 1mV to 10mV)
Low Pass > Cutoff Frequency: 150Hz (can be set from 40Hz to 150Hz)
Parametric EQs > Central Frequency: 50Hz, Bandwidth: 1/3 bar, Gain: 0dB
Auto EQ: On

Additional Info: My average listening volume is about -8 dB. Never higher than +5 dB. I sit about 8ft away from the speakers. It seems like the sub might be turning on only at very high dB. Is that possible?

@Kvn_Walker I'm not sure how to "use a manual EQ that emphasizes bass". I am a complete noob. I would like to verify the sub is not defective, just not sure how to do that.

I really appreciate anyone taking the time to give me advice. Thank you.

 

[ryanosaur]

Again, not certain how the Yamaha actually works, but you should look at setting your speakers to small. Setting to large defeats the LFE/subwoofer line in most systems. You can still do test tones, but when you play music or movies, the AVR thinks your speakers can do the work. Give that a try. (I know with my Marantz, they detail that in the manual, and its come up here many times too. Also, consider setting the crossover to at least 80... probably 120 would be better.

As for the output of your sub, give it a whirl... if you get it bumping, you should be good. If you are unhappy with it once you get it producing sound, check out the Bassaholic stuff here on Audioholics. For 3000'3, they call that a large room, and you would be ideally looking for 12-15" drivers capable of some good SPL to fill your space.

That said, for years, I used an undersized HTIB sub in my greatroom, >8000'3, and it was ok. Not great. When I connected it to my marantz, it got much better. Now I have Outlaw x-13s, and the difference is staggering.

 

[lovinthehd]

Hard to know your speaker/sub positioning unless you describe it better, but sub placement can be particularly important due the way lower bass frequencies work in rooms (and square rooms can add a bit more challenge). Seat placement up against boundaries doesn't sound like an issue, tho.

From a quick look at your settings with your speakers set to large your sub is being used minimally (i.e. no bass redirection to your sub, so you're just getting whatever is in the LFE channel in the content you're listening to). Not sure what the 40hz setting for the sub is, tho (is that something on the sub itself, or is that an avr setting?). The subwoofer distance isn't necessarily "wrong" as it isn't physical distance as much as it is delay (and your sub's amp processing has additional delay inherent). Seems your sub's gain level might be a bit on the low side since the avr is trying to boost it by 10dB (and even more if that is the max amount your avr can boost sub level); I'd raise gain on the sub a bit and re-run YPAO as a first step and, after YPAO has been run, change all speakers to small and start with a crossover of 80hz (and please explain what the 40hz setting refers to).

Your listening levels seem quite high (I rarely go beyond -10 myself let alone to +5). Is this with 5.1 movie content or music particularly? The calibrated scales are more useful for movies due the lack of standards much music has in comparison.

 

[ryanosaur]

Just outa curiosity, have you actually measured the distance to your speakers manually? Get a friend to help you out by holding the tape at your LP, then measure the distance to each speaker at the tweeter. Compare that to your calibration settings.
Is your sub really 1' away from your LP? (I know you say its not... so fix it.)
You should be able to override those manually, but my gut is telling me you can fix everything by resetting to "factory" across the board and running your calibration again with all speakers set to small.
Do you have your owners manual? This can and will be your best friend for helping troubleshoot.
Cheers!

 

[Kvn_Walker]

I think I see it already.

"Front: Large"

I've had experiences with equipment where this trims subwoofer output dramatically. Even though I have tower speakers for my fronts, I still set my receiver to "small" fronts. Set all your speakers to "small" and work your way backwards and see what changes. Also set an 80Hz crossover point. Give that a shot. Hopefully it will be this easy to fix.

edit- looks like others already noticed that too. Good luck!

 

[ryanosaur]

Some goodies to look at re: bass management:
Audioholics
SVS
Lifewire
Best,
R

 

[Brian.M]

Wow, thanks guys. I changed all the speakers to small and that helped for sure. Also changed crossover to 80Hz.

I can definitely tell my Sub is working now. Whereas before I wasn't sure if it was doing anything. I'm going to do some more playing around and see what I can learn.

This sub is definitely different than what I'm used to. Kind of subtle and smooth if that's a thing. Instead of a loud rattling "hey look at me".

One more quick question while I'm thinking about it. Should I put the carpet spikes on the bottom of the sub? Like does that effect sound quality or is it just to make it sit level? My sub is on carpet but I didn't install them because it sits level just fine.

 

[lovinthehd]

I'd only use spikes if I needed to anchor the sub in place (or wanted to avoid the depressions left in by the other feet).

Am curious if you raised the gain on the sub and re-ran YPAO to change that +10db level setting? Subs should be more subtle and not call themselves out (particularly not being able to tell where they are located audibly).

 

[Brian.M]

I did re-run YPAO and it changed that +10db drastically. Now it shows -4.5db.

After re-running YPAO most of those levels changed quite a bit. They're all close to 0 now. Maybe that first time I used YPAO there was some kind of error.

 

[lovinthehd]

I did re-run YPAO and it changed that +10db drastically. Now it shows -4.5db.

After re-running YPAO most of those levels changed quite a bit. They're all close to 0 now. Maybe that first time I used YPAO there was some kind of error.

YPAO takes the sub level (based on your gain setting on the sub) and tries to balance it with your other speakers; not all REQ programs do this; Audyssey sets sub level independently for example. Those are much better numbers, tho. Did you leave sub delay/distance as set by YPAO? (I would)

 

[ryanosaur]

Should I put the carpet spikes on the bottom of the sub?

In theory, depending on who you ask, spikes can change the sound. Some say spikes are for stability. Some say they will couple the sub or speaker to the floor due to better penetration through the carpet. Others say they help de-couple by providing less surface contact to the floor ("pinpoint" contact instead of 1-2"diameter feet x4 or x6). Depending on whether any of those is true, one might-perhaps experience tighter bass... or not. *shrugs I haven't seen anything definitive one way or the other.
I am in the process of experimenting with this because I do have very spongy floors that transmit vibrations like mad. So for me, I'm more interested in neutralizing a lot of the sympathetic vibrations (which in theory is supposed to help tighten the bass sound a bit). Its gonna be a few weeks while I experiment in my scene... partly because I'm still waiting on the arrival of my speakers to actualy set everything up and start dialing in my system proper. Currently I'm just testing things out and making adjustments by ear (subs are set to approx 1/4 on the dial, now, instead of 1/2 where it is commonly recommended to start out, but not adjusted through my AVR).
You can always try them out and see if you like them, too!
One other note... another trick is having a platform on spikes... something like granite or a concrete pad, or a wood cutting board like a Boos Board mounted on outriggers, then put your sub on that: I've seen references that this can help out more if you have a down firing sub on carpet, but in theory, you are employing feet and a platform that each contribute vibration dampening, and then minimizing contact with the floor. But same as above... It may or may not actually work.

 

[Brian.M]

Did you leave sub delay/distance as set by YPAO? (I would)

That second run of YPAO changed sub distance from 1ft to about 10ft. Much more in line with the physical distance from my sub to my listening position. I left it at what YPAO set (10ft).

 

[lovinthehd]

That second run of YPAO changed sub distance from 1ft to about 10ft. Much more in line with the physical distance from my sub to my listening position. I left it at what YPAO set (10ft).

Without moving the sub I take it? What is the physical distance?

 

[Brian.M]

Yes, without moving the sub. Physical distance from sub to listening position is about 9.5 ft. I'll probably try moving it around soon and seeing what sounds best. Thanks again guys for taking the time to help out a noob.