"Caravan"... What To Do?

[herbu]

If you use the "All people are born equal in God's eyes" example, wouldn't that constitute grounds for a 'One World Order'?

The fact that I asked that question makes me shudder because it could be inferred by some that it means everyone should have the same amounts of everything, but that's not what 'In His Eyes' means. The Bible doesn't say it's bad to have more than someone else, but that it's good to share. I believe the other major religions teach the same. The problem is that someone always wants to be in charge of the money and they always take more for themselves and add others so they can get the 'Friends and family' deal. The Party always gets more while the rest starve.

A guy on local radio made a great point, one day- he said "I have a big problem listening to billionaires tell millionaires what the Middle Class needs".

Thanks for the thoughtful responses from you and Kurt. We agree on much, which was my suspicion. But it cannot be uncovered until we stop acting like we're playing Monopoly... "Go straight to name calling. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200".

Of course I don't want a One World Order. The eyes of God are different than the laws of man. Of course the caravan is political. It was born and is supported by politics. It seems our only disagreement is the motives of each side, (which we will never prove either way).

Now, with that same thoughtful approach, I'm still looking for reasons why birthright citizenship is a good idea. If one of the child's parents is a citizen, of course. But if neither parent is a citizen, and they are in this country illegally, what rational says the child should be a US citizen? I have not seen a single reason expressed anywhere. Does anyone here have one?

 

[highfigh]

Thanks for the thoughtful responses from you and Kurt. We agree on much, which was my suspicion. But it cannot be uncovered until we stop acting like we're playing Monopoly... "Go straight to name calling. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200".

Of course I don't want a One World Order. The eyes of God are different than the laws of man. Of course the caravan is political. It was born and is supported by politics. It seems our only disagreement is the motives of each side, (which we will never prove either way).

Now, with that same thoughtful approach, I'm still looking for reasons why birthright citizenship is a good idea. If one of the child's parents is a citizen, of course. But if neither parent is a citizen, and they are in this country illegally, what rational says the child should be a US citizen? I have not seen a single reason expressed anywhere. Does anyone here have one?

I don't like the hatred of Capitalism by many when they then fail to offer any kind of workable alternative, just "We should be more like Sweden". Sweden isn't even like what they think, anymore- I watched a show called 'Sweden- Lessons for America?' and saw that they aren't as Socialist as they were in the '60s-early-'80s, but they still have some good ideas for things like their school voucher program. This program is used in Wisconsin now and it's working very well, to offer kids from lower economic levels the opportunity to go to better schools. Oddly, the Left wants to abolish it. One who has been most vocal about ending this is the candidate for Governor, who is now the state school superintendent.

WRT medical care- the US has some of the best staff and facilities on the planet and they not only have the ability to treat all patients, they have the desire. The stumbling block is the health care insurance industry, IMO. THEY'RE the ones who deny treatment and payment claims, THEY'RE the ones who have driven up the cost to the point that people can't afford it and THEY'RE the ones pointing fingers when people talk about the cost. Also, THEY'RE the ones who build new headquarters when they have good years where they have been able to hoard money by not paying what they took in through the premiums they charge. What they did, again IMO, is insert themselves into the process by claiming to be able to make the paperwork more efficient and less burdensome to the health care industry and then, they began to see it as a cash cow, which resulted in denied claims, reduced payments which resulted in the need to negotiate and higher claims, which are then discounted. Many medical facilities already have endowments that cover part, or all, of a patients' costs when they can't afford treatment and a lately, more doctors and facilities have been offering discounts for cash or payment plans set up with the patients, without the insurance involved at all.

I would bet that if all of the money from insurance premiums not spent by insurers and all of the expenses claimed by them are the difference between health care being affordable and not affordable. One of the big treatment denials is many kinds of pre-existing condition. How is a patient going to prevent this and why should it NOT be covered if it recurs? If a patient moves from one insurer to another, this is usually the reason given for the exorbitant premiums or even denying the patient's application. How are they supposed to prevent the damage from congenital cardiac issues or birth defects, immune system diseases like Diabetes, MS, Rhumatoid Arthritis, etc? Even Osteo Arthritis, if previously treated, is considered a 'pre-existing condition'.

WRT Laws of Good being different from the Laws of Man- while humans have far more laws, the main ones are aligned with those of the three main world religions and it's logical to think one came before the other. The motives, OTOH, aren't all hard to see. The party that gives away the most wins votes, the one that doesn't must work harder for votes. Votes equal power.

It's possible that the rationale is that a baby born in a foreign country is a citizen because it has never been in any other country and by being born here, the US is 'planting a flag' on it via this designation. I don't know- this is something I just thought of.

 

[highfigh]

As I've said before, this is an interesting time in history to be alive. Trump is many things, but boring is not one of them!

Things make more sense if you recognize his objective is simply "to win". Anything else is secondary to that. "winning" for him is maintaining the adoration of his base and staying in power.

I may be wrong and a lot of people might think I'm a big Trump backer/fanboi, but I wonder if he does and says so many outrageous things to get a base reaction, to show what people are really thinking. I constantly see comments from the Left that the racist rhetoric and actions of a few are "just what all Republicans are thinking", "it brought out their true feelings" and other similar crap. Conversely, the Left has made horrible comments about him, tried to block Kavanaugh via slander and lies and then, without any repercussions, a couple of notable celebrities made comments about violence toward him or the White House (DiNiro, Madonna and Rosie O'Donnell).

Look at what some of the more vocal Democrat politicians have said- they were voted into office (sometimes, making them career politicians) by the people in their states/districts and yet, everything is the fault of the Right or Left. Neither side owns everything that's wrong with this country, but not enough people want to see it that way. They just want to point fingers.

 

[Hobbit]

I

WRT medical care- the US has some of the best staff and facilities on the planet and they not only have the ability to treat all patients, they have the desire. The stumbling block is the health care insurance industry, IMO. THEY'RE the ones who deny treatment and payment claims, THEY'RE the ones who have driven up the cost to the point that people can't afford it and THEY'RE the ones pointing fingers when people talk about the cost.
.

I think that's true to a point. A friend of mine who's an ENT told me he makes 33 to 50% more what ENT in the EU make. They both make a lot of money... Even after he pays his malpractice. Numbers also get confusing because his salary doesn't include his bonuses, which are huge. Often as much as his salary. I think the problem is a whole lot deeper than just blaming the insurance companies.

I may be wrong and a lot of people might think I'm a big Trump backer/fanboi, but I wonder if he does and says so many outrageous things to get a base reaction, to show what people are really thinking. I constantly see comments from the Left that the racist rhetoric and actions of a few are "just what all Republicans are thinking", "it brought out their true feelings" and other similar crap. Conversely, the Left has made horrible comments about him, tried to block Kavanaugh via slander and lies and then, without any repercussions, a couple of notable celebrities made comments about violence toward him or the White House (DiNiro, Madonna and Rosie O'Donnell).

Look at what some of the more vocal Democrat politicians have said- they were voted into office (sometimes, making them career politicians) by the people in their states/districts and yet, everything is the fault of the Right or Left. Neither side owns everything that's wrong with this country, but not enough people want to see it that way. They just want to point fingers.

I don't recall republicans ever being nice when dem's tried to nominate a SCOTUS? Same rhetoric. With 11 months left in Obama's term the republicans wouldn't even vote to replace Scalia. That's almost 25% of his term.

I heard a lot of bad finger pointing and name calling towards Obama by republicans and others.

I agree there's too much name calling and not doing anything on both sides. Even when they want the same thing. I my view, here's how the politics in today's age works. A R and a D want to see the same movie. One of them wants to take 2nd street and the other wants to take 3rd street. So they call each other names, threaten to shut the shut the government down if they don't get their way, and never go see the movie.

 

[mtrycrafts]

.... With 11 months left in Obama's term the republicans wouldn't even vote to replace Scalia. That's almost 25% of his term.
....

Vote? They didn't even talk to the nominee, just sat on the nomination paper.

 

[pewternhrata]

@highfigh dont forget those uninsured, who seek treatment and neglect to pay the bill. Where does that money come from, those that carry insurance. Majority of my friends (I'm in my early 30s) do not get health insurance because a hospital cannot deny treatment. They believe the insurance companies or hospitals write it off as a loss so who cares. They also have the mindset of being young, 'what health issues do I have, I'm young' and they dont want to pay for health insurance because currently they are in good health and don't think they will need to use it. ACA was supposed to help out with the high risk pools (good effort, seriously) however where did the funds in the high risk pools go when Obama guaranteed profits for health insurance companies? It left nothing and increased premiums at a record pace.

Not sure how 'we' can balance out the costs. I get it, insurance is expensive (crazy expensive for some) but until more people obtain coverage, the rates are going to increase drastically for those that elect for coverage.

 

[mtrycrafts]

.... Majority of my friends (I'm in my early 30s) do not get health insurance because a hospital cannot deny treatment. They believe the insurance companies or hospitals write it off as a loss so who cares. They also have the mindset of being young, 'what health issues do I have, I'm young' and they dont want to pay for health insurance because currently they are in good health and don't think they will need to use it. ACA was supposed to help out with the high risk pools (good effort, seriously) however where did the funds in the high risk pools go when Obama guaranteed profits for health insurance companies? It left nothing and increased premiums at a record pace.

Not sure how 'we' can balance out the costs. I get it, insurance is expensive (crazy expensive for some) but until more people obtain coverage, the rates are going to increase drastically for those that elect for coverage.

Yes, and when the hospital bi;ll is unpaid, that goes on ones credit report and rating goes down the toilet. Actually, hospitals may send the bill collector and garnish wages after court hearing?

I haven't had a car accident in who knows how long. Perhaps I should cancel my car insurance?
The young just cannot fathom an unexpected health even, a broken arm, leg, etc. Very expensive

 

[lovinthehd]

@highfigh dont forget those uninsured, who seek treatment and neglect to pay the bill. Where does that money come from, those that carry insurance. Majority of my friends (I'm in my early 30s) do not get health insurance because a hospital cannot deny treatment. They believe the insurance companies or hospitals write it off as a loss so who cares. They also have the mindset of being young, 'what health issues do I have, I'm young' and they dont want to pay for health insurance because currently they are in good health and don't think they will need to use it. ACA was supposed to help out with the high risk pools (good effort, seriously) however where did the funds in the high risk pools go when Obama guaranteed profits for health insurance companies? It left nothing and increased premiums at a record pace.

Not sure how 'we' can balance out the costs. I get it, insurance is expensive (crazy expensive for some) but until more people obtain coverage, the rates are going to increase drastically for those that elect for coverage.

So you're saying that if someone neglects to pay the bill the insurance companies pickup that cost somehow? How does that work? Thought it was hospitals in debt because no one reimburses them was more the problem. Not sure. I do believe insurance companies are much more part of the problem than solution, tho.

 

[lovinthehd]

I don't like the hatred of Capitalism by many when they then fail to offer any kind of workable alternative, just "We should be more like Sweden". Sweden isn't even like what they think, anymore- I watched a show called 'Sweden- Lessons for America?' and saw that they aren't as Socialist as they were in the '60s-early-'80s, but they still have some good ideas for things like their school voucher program. This program is used in Wisconsin now and it's working very well, to offer kids from lower economic levels the opportunity to go to better schools. Oddly, the Left wants to abolish it. One who has been most vocal about ending this is the candidate for Governor, who is now the state school superintendent.

WRT medical care- the US has some of the best staff and facilities on the planet and they not only have the ability to treat all patients, they have the desire. The stumbling block is the health care insurance industry, IMO. THEY'RE the ones who deny treatment and payment claims, THEY'RE the ones who have driven up the cost to the point that people can't afford it and THEY'RE the ones pointing fingers when people talk about the cost. Also, THEY'RE the ones who build new headquarters when they have good years where they have been able to hoard money by not paying what they took in through the premiums they charge. What they did, again IMO, is insert themselves into the process by claiming to be able to make the paperwork more efficient and less burdensome to the health care industry and then, they began to see it as a cash cow, which resulted in denied claims, reduced payments which resulted in the need to negotiate and higher claims, which are then discounted. Many medical facilities already have endowments that cover part, or all, of a patients' costs when they can't afford treatment and a lately, more doctors and facilities have been offering discounts for cash or payment plans set up with the patients, without the insurance involved at all.

I would bet that if all of the money from insurance premiums not spent by insurers and all of the expenses claimed by them are the difference between health care being affordable and not affordable. One of the big treatment denials is many kinds of pre-existing condition. How is a patient going to prevent this and why should it NOT be covered if it recurs? If a patient moves from one insurer to another, this is usually the reason given for the exorbitant premiums or even denying the patient's application. How are they supposed to prevent the damage from congenital cardiac issues or birth defects, immune system diseases like Diabetes, MS, Rhumatoid Arthritis, etc? Even Osteo Arthritis, if previously treated, is considered a 'pre-existing condition'.

WRT Laws of Good being different from the Laws of Man- while humans have far more laws, the main ones are aligned with those of the three main world religions and it's logical to think one came before the other. The motives, OTOH, aren't all hard to see. The party that gives away the most wins votes, the one that doesn't must work harder for votes. Votes equal power.

It's possible that the rationale is that a baby born in a foreign country is a citizen because it has never been in any other country and by being born here, the US is 'planting a flag' on it via this designation. I don't know- this is something I just thought of.

Hatred of capitalism? Really? We don't even have true capitalism for that matter, any more than we have true democracy.

 

[pewternhrata]

Yes, and when the hospital bi;ll is unpaid, that goes on ones credit report and rating goes down the toilet. Actually, hospitals may send the bill collector and garnish wages after court hearing?

I haven't had a car accident in who knows how long. Perhaps I should cancel my car insurance?
The young just cannot fathom an unexpected health even, a broken arm, leg, etc. Very expensive

Unfortunately I dont think too many people understand the importance of a credit rating these days (my field of work involves a lot of temps, mostly in their early 20s and they dont even know what Equifax is)
There were a few kids that I grew a friendship with, gave some tips on credit, long story short they all thanked me.
I'm fairly sure if driving without car insurance wasn't illegal, most of them would not have any.
Like I said I'm still young being in my early 30s but I do understand the benefits of insurance. I'll 'invest' my money in case of an unfortunate event. Ok so maybe I wont 'get back' what I've paid in, but personally I'd rather be safe than sorry.

 

[pewternhrata]

So you're saying that if someone neglects to pay the bill the insurance companies pickup that cost somehow? How does that work? Thought it was hospitals in debt because no one reimburses them was more the problem. Not sure. I do believe insurance companies are much more part of the problem than solution, tho.

I might be wrong, but iirc the insurance companies set the costs, so basically an insurance company is the bank, and the hospital is the loaner? Ok that's vague but hopefully someone can elaborate a little more.
I do know, after roughly 180 days of no payment, the debt will be sold to a 3rd party collection agency. Yes the debt is sold but usually for pennies on the dollar, so the hospital is still taking a loss.

 

[lovinthehd]

I might be wrong, but iirc the insurance companies set the costs, so basically an insurance company is the bank, and the hospital is the loaner? Ok that's vague but hopefully someone can elaborate a little more.
I do know, after roughly 180 days of no payment, the debt will be sold to a 3rd party collection agency. Yes the debt is sold but usually for pennies on the dollar, so the hospital is still taking a loss.

Makes no sense the debt would be sold by the hospital if the insurance company picked it up.... Maybe the hospital jacks up costs across the board if the insurance companies accept such, but believe the insurance companies would generally not cooperate with such. Too much insurance company influence in our current healthcare setup IMO. Currently much more part of the problem than a solution like a national healthcare/single payer system. Don't forget the lawyers and malpractice insurance.

 

[Drunkpenguin]

Theyre all part of the problem. Doctors, hospitals, insurance companies, pharmaceuticals. All greedy bastards!

Idk why so many people are against health care being a taxed system that gives everyone the same equal access. Makes the most sense to me. If you call 911 because your neighbors trying to kill you would you be ok getting a bill from the cop that saved you? Healthcare could and should work the same way IMO.

 

[herbu]

We no longer have health insurance. We used to, but not any more. We moved from insurance to universal health care... and that's why the transition is so troublesome and painful.

Insurance means analyzing your risk, calculating the odds of something happening to you and establishing a payment that each side is willing to accept. When we had insurance, you could decide what conditions you wanted to cover and how much risk you were willing to take. But like Vegas, the odds were always in favor of the house.

Now insurance is gone and we have required universal health care. You are not paying for your own risk and coverage, you're paying for everyone's. The govt tells doctors and hospitals how much they can charge for a procedure, and what procedures they are required to do. The govt tells drug companies how much they can charge. The government tells "Insurance" companies what they must cover and how much they can charge. In response, all these providers search for loopholes to remain within the letter of the law and still maximize their profit. The consumer is caught in the middle.

The underlying question is How Much treatment are the "charity cases" entitled to? Is someone who doesn't pay entitled to the very latest and best technology and treatment? Who decides? Since our resources don't support Everybody getting the very latest and best treatment, who decides how much is enough? If you cannot pick and choose what you want to cover with insurance, someone else is deciding what and how much treatment you get.

Instead of forcing everyone into the same bucket, I'd like to see genuine health insurance return. If you have the money, you can pick and choose the elements of your coverage, and shop for the best company & price. If you need the welfare healthcare, you fall under the predetermined plans like we have today. Everybody has or can have coverage. People who pay for it can have better coverage than people who get it free.

 

[Drunkpenguin]

Do you think we should all pay for firemen? Should the more you make determine how many fighters show up to your house? Should we have a cheap plan that requires cops only bring one bullet to your house when chasing away bad guys?

Why should rich people have better medical than poor? We all deserve to right to survive dont we?

We were paying 800 a month for insurance until my wife landed a state job. That was nore than 2 car payments combined! Unless you work for a small company that doesnt offer health ins i dont think you have any idea how out of whack it actually is right now.

 

[highfigh]

Hatred of capitalism? Really? We don't even have true capitalism for that matter, any more than we have true democracy.

I know, but I also know people who don't like it at all and I read a lot of comments that see any Capitalism as bad. I don't know if it's because they dislike competition of any kind or are just jealous about others having a lot of money. I agree with them in the fact that greed is rampant and on other points, though.

 

[highfigh]

Theyre all part of the problem. Doctors, hospitals, insurance companies, pharmaceuticals. All greedy bastards!

Idk why so many people are against health care being a taxed system that gives everyone the same equal access. Makes the most sense to me. If you call 911 because your neighbors trying to kill you would you be ok getting a bill from the cop that saved you? Healthcare could and should work the same way IMO.

How do you tax people who pay no taxes? Remember the comment about the US having 47% of people not paying income tax, made by Mitt Romney that pissed so many people off?

 

[highfigh]

@highfigh dont forget those uninsured, who seek treatment and neglect to pay the bill. Where does that money come from, those that carry insurance. Majority of my friends (I'm in my early 30s) do not get health insurance because a hospital cannot deny treatment. They believe the insurance companies or hospitals write it off as a loss so who cares. They also have the mindset of being young, 'what health issues do I have, I'm young' and they dont want to pay for health insurance because currently they are in good health and don't think they will need to use it. ACA was supposed to help out with the high risk pools (good effort, seriously) however where did the funds in the high risk pools go when Obama guaranteed profits for health insurance companies? It left nothing and increased premiums at a record pace.

Not sure how 'we' can balance out the costs. I get it, insurance is expensive (crazy expensive for some) but until more people obtain coverage, the rates are going to increase drastically for those that elect for coverage.

Do your friends understand that writing off unpaid bills means they lost money and can go bankrupt? The hospital closest to me closed because of unpaid bills after so many used the ER as their primary care center. Your friends are stealing from the hospitals and insurers, regardless of how they justify it.

The ACA relied on healthy, younger and people who weren't quite middle-age to pay the most, in order to level the field for those who can't pay, or can't pay as much.The problem is that those people either found a better plan or decided to pass on insurance completely, which wasn't forseen. The very fact that Obama guaranteed profits for the insurers means that HE was part of the problem. Insurance is expensive because the insurers add their profits to the cost of health care. We need to pay for health care, not the insurance company's profits. Granted, they aren't allowed to make as much as other corporate entities, but they also have the ability to deny coverage, which means they don't have to pay as much for catastrophic disease treatment unless additional fees are paid by the insured.

 

[highfigh]

I think that's true to a point. A friend of mine who's an ENT told me he makes 33 to 50% more what ENT in the EU make. They both make a lot of money... Even after he pays his malpractice. Numbers also get confusing because his salary doesn't include his bonuses, which are huge. Often as much as his salary. I think the problem is a whole lot deeper than just blaming the insurance companies.

I don't recall republicans ever being nice when dem's tried to nominate a SCOTUS? Same rhetoric. With 11 months left in Obama's term the republicans wouldn't even vote to replace Scalia. That's almost 25% of his term.

I heard a lot of bad finger pointing and name calling towards Obama by republicans and others.

I agree there's too much name calling and not doing anything on both sides. Even when they want the same thing. I my view, here's how the politics in today's age works. A R and a D want to see the same movie. One of them wants to take 2nd street and the other wants to take 3rd street. So they call each other names, threaten to shut the shut the government down if they don't get their way, and never go see the movie.

Part of the cost is the malpractice insurance- it's really expensive but they can't leave themselves exposed to the liability or they'll be sued out of existence. That may be part of the reason people in medical fields are most likely to commit suicide.

Republicans may not have been nice, but they didn't smear anyone like the Dems did to Kavanaugh.

The halt to the process was just the pendulum swinging back from other nominations being stopped by the Dems, which were payback for the GOP stopping theirs, etc, etc, etc. It wasn't the first time.

Too much bickering over inconsequential ideas and details. I worked with someone who just had to do things his way. One day, we were installing some AV equipment and when the time came to take the TV box outside, I tipped it over so the large upper part was on the floor, ready for me to put the styrofoam pieces and other stuff inside. He wanted to have the tiny base on the floor and try to balance all of the stuff on it, then try to put the top on. He got all worked up and then said "Boy, we sure do things different".

 

[Steve81]

We all deserve to right to survive dont we?

A curious thing to say, since none of us will survive in the end. No, we don't have the right to survive at the expense of others. OTOH, there are pragmatic arguments that can be made in favor of universal healthcare, i.e. a healthy population is more productive than a sick one, diseases have no qualms about spreading from the poor to those who are better off, it's cheaper and easier to catch things early, etc. Of course with respect to your statement, the powers that be would also do well to remember a quote from old Mark Twain: principles have no real force except when one is well-fed.