"Caravan"... What To Do?

[herbu]

Can we discuss this without politics, name calling and personal attacks?

There are reportedly ~7k people traveling through Mexico with the intent of entering the US. It seems they intend to enter outside of legal channels. The crowd is diverse with some families and some singles. Some are carrying flags of their home country, some are demonstrating hostility toward the US with signs and flag burning, but the majority seem to just be following the crowd. Many have new backpacks and all are somehow receiving food, water and transportation assistance. I don't know where the support originates.

Of course it has become a political issue. I hear criticism, but I do not hear constructive and reasonable suggestions on what we should do.

So I'm asking... what should we do?

(Are we on this forum mature enough to discuss it without political vitriol and personal attacks? Frankly, I think this request is like the lottery. I know the odds of winning are practically zero, but sometimes I'll buy a ticket just for the entertainment value of a couple days fantasizing about it. One of my greatest desires is finding a mixed group of conservatives and liberals that can discuss an issue with civility and maturity. I honestly want to hear, understand and discuss these issues with people that hold a perspective different than mine. Sadly, the discussion of the issue usually deteriorates into childish name calling faster than I can open a bag of pig skins. That's fun too, and I can play that game. But let's not.)

Does anyone have legitimate thoughts or suggestions on how we handle this "caravan"?

 

[Hetfield]

Can we discuss this without politics, name calling and personal attacks?

There are reportedly ~7k people traveling through Mexico with the intent of entering the US. It seems they intend to enter outside of legal channels. The crowd is diverse with some families and some singles. Some are carrying flags of their home country, some are demonstrating hostility toward the US with signs and flag burning, but the majority seem to just be following the crowd. Many have new backpacks and all are somehow receiving food, water and transportation assistance. I don't know where the support originates.

Of course it has become a political issue. I hear criticism, but I do not hear constructive and reasonable suggestions on what we should do.

So I'm asking... what should we do?

(Are we on this forum mature enough to discuss it without political vitriol and personal attacks? Frankly, I think this request is like the lottery. I know the odds of winning are practically zero, but sometimes I'll buy a ticket just for the entertainment value of a couple days fantasizing about it. One of my greatest desires is finding a mixed group of conservatives and liberals that can discuss an issue with civility and maturity. I honestly want to hear, understand and discuss these issues with people that hold a perspective different than mine. Sadly, the discussion of the issue usually deteriorates into childish name calling faster than I can open a bag of pig skins. That's fun too, and I can play that game. But let's not.)

Does anyone have legitimate thoughts or suggestions on how we handle this "caravan"?

Not possible but good luck.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

 

[Drunkpenguin]

You can't build the greatest country on the planet next door to the 3rd world and NOT expect people to come. What to do about it? I dont know. What I see is places like China and India taking over the worlds economy because they have cheaper labor available. We have cheaper labor wanting to come here but we turn them away. Seems practical to me to vet these people, let the good ones come in, help us build stuff and get competitive again. The argument that they cost peoples jobs is misguided. They would cost jobs no more than you having another baby does. Each additional person requires things that create more jobs, a house, a car, gas, food, trips to Disney land, etc.

But my opinion is only shared by half the country so this conversation will go south really quick.

 

[CB22]

Are we on this forum mature enough to discuss it without political vitriol and personal attacks?

Maybe. Big maybe

Unless seeking political asylum there no way they'll get let in. Even if they are seeking political asylum I doubt the big man trump will let them in. Hopefully that was a delicate response.

I think the bigger question is how to handle the nearly 3 million to maybe even upward of 11 million people here illegally, we really don't know exactly how many. Literally impossible to deport them all even if ICE was running on all cylinders 24/7. My opinion, legalize them so we can the tax $ and get strict on the border.

 

[Alex2507]

Hmmm ... seems like A Wall ought to keep their problem from becoming our problem.

Anybody who disagrees with me is so stupid it takes them an hour and a half to watch 60 Minutes.

I just wanted to get the first one in and in before the lock.

Ok, seriously, flame throwers at the border. Final answer.

 

[John Parks]

Hmmm ... seems like A Wall ought to keep their problem from becoming our problem.

Anybody who disagrees with me is so stupid it takes them an hour and a half to watch 60 Minutes.

I just wanted to get the first one in and in before the lock.

Ok, seriously, flame throwers at the border. Final answer.

 

[CB22]

Ok, seriously, flame throwers at the border. Final answer.

agreed, you are the winner of this thread.

 

[KEW]

After WW2, the U.S. talked a good talk about fighting human rights abuse ... and we actually followed through for awhile!
But then we got lazy and the oh so complicated (because of constant battle between ill-defined factions over limited resources) middle east became important as a source of oil. In many cases we chose to go to bed with a somewhat immoral country (because it provided a stable trading partner and it was very unclear that the next faction in power would be any better).
I always wonder how much "big oil" influenced these decisions! We'll probably never know for certain, and it is hard to say what is "right or wrong" in such circumstances; but I think everyone is aware that weapons we supplied to fight Russian supported troops were used against our own soldiers at a later date (and that is also an important aspect - the superpowers were competing using these small countries to avoid direct confrontation. I do believe maintaining two aircraft carriers in the Gulf for many decades was essentially subsidizing the oil companies.
In any case, I think it is the Middle East that caused us to lose our way, and when inhuman situations exist, we do not address them as we should.
Trump threatened removal of aid if they don't stop the flow out of their country, but we should really be targeting providing secure living conditions as the requirement to maintain aid. Not an easy thing, but it would not be a problem if it were easy.
I'm sure a portion of the migrants are simply looking for better opportunity, but there are also plenty who saw likely death/abuse of themselves and family in their future if they stayed.
The bottom line is it is a very complex issue with no easy solution.
I think, for our border, the emphasis needs to be on securing the border and having an effective vetting process.

 

[Drunkpenguin]

My only response to people that don't want them here is, put yourself in their shoes. If the US went to hell and turned into a 3rd world country and Canada became the place to be, you bet your ass I would be trying to get my family over there.

 

[shadyJ]

Can we discuss this without politics, name calling and personal attacks?

What fun would that be?

Seriously though, what is there to debate about? There is a process to seek legal asylum. Anyone can and should be able to seek asylum, but not anyone should be granted asylum if they do not qualify for it. The USA is a signatory to refugee treaties that obligate this. The people in the caravan should be processed as asylum seekers, and if they are found to qualify for asylum, let them in. If they don't, send them back.

 

[John Parks]

What fun would that be?

Seriously though, what is there to debate about? There is a process to seek legal asylum. Anyone can and should be able to seek asylum, but not anyone should be granted asylum if they do not qualify for it. The USA is a signatory to refugee treaties that obligate this. The people in the caravan should be processed as asylum seekers, and if they are found to qualify for asylum, let them in. If they don't, send them back.

Excellent answer - almost as good as flamethrowers!

 

[lovinthehd]

Why is this even an issue except to grandstand? Is there really much chance of them being let in? They can apply for asylum and under the current administration be turned away....what's the fuss?

 

[Hobbit]

Why is this even an issue except to grandstand? Is there really much chance of them being let in? They can apply for asylum and under the current administration be turned away....what's the fuss?

Or, like the last caravan, it will dissolve before getting close to the border.

 

[Midwesthonky]

Sorry, read flamethrowers and got distracted.

Damn, wrote that and got distracted again.

It's definitely not an easy answer. The central American countries have huge issues with crime and gangs due to the money involved in drugs. Add in poverty and corruption and I fully understand why they want to come to the US. We do have jobs for them. The argument that immigrants and illegals take jobs away from US Citizens is a false narative. US Citizens have a key advantage - they speak US english (excluding certain parts of the south). Besides, how may US citizens want a crap job like working in a slaughter house or picking produce in the hot sun for 10-12 hours a day? US Citizens don't so that is why we need immigrants.

It is a complex issue and I'm certainly one with ideas but I also realize my ideas may not work. I do not pretend to have all the answers. The ones with families simply want to give their children a chance at a better life. A chance to live without dying in gang violence before they reach 16 years of age. If we could get people off of drugs, the lack of demand would cut the cash to the cartels and the gangs. The gangs would just move into other revenue streams like prostitution, "protection" schemes, etc. So that isn't going away. Ultimately, the poverty situation in Central America needs to be fixed to cut down on the desire to come to the US. All the drug and cartel wars in Mexico has the same effect.

No easy answer. None at all. We have need of people to fill jobs with people willing to work crap hours for low pay. No one wants a McBurger that costs $10 so it's cheap labor or automate.

Vet them. Cut the riff raff out. There are plenty of people who will employ the ones that are legit.

 

[herbu]

Thanks everybody. It seems we have a consensus that we cannot simply allow uncontrolled access to our country. We are the most prosperous big country in the world. Almost every "Have Not" in the world would like to live here. We not only have generous welfare, we are perhaps the most charitable country in the world. It is no wonder people want to come here.

Look in your own city. How many woefully poor people live there? How can anyone justify living in a 2500 ft2 house, or driving a $50k car, or having dual subwoofers when people in their own city don't have food or shelter? We all feel sorry for those less fortunate, and the international situation is far worse than the local one. Worldwide, there are MANY more poor people than "wealthy" people. We each help as much as we're willing, and our Constitution allows us to make that personal decision, (mostly). While we do a lot, we cannot feed or care for the whole world.

For us to continue to control our own charity, we must control border access. That means we must stop this "caravan", at least until we can identify who we want and who we don't. If a line of armed soldiers is the only way, I'm OK with that. And if the crowd chooses to assault the line of soldiers, the soldiers must do what soldiers do. It would be horrible, but it would be the caravan's choice, not ours. Unfeeling? I don't think so.

The news this morning said Mexico offered immigration papers and jobs to the caravan. The migrants refused.

 

[highfigh]

You can't build the greatest country on the planet next door to the 3rd world and NOT expect people to come. What to do about it? I dont know. What I see is places like China and India taking over the worlds economy because they have cheaper labor available. We have cheaper labor wanting to come here but we turn them away. Seems practical to me to vet these people, let the good ones come in, help us build stuff and get competitive again. The argument that they cost peoples jobs is misguided. They would cost jobs no more than you having another baby does. Each additional person requires things that create more jobs, a house, a car, gas, food, trips to Disney land, etc.

But my opinion is only shared by half the country so this conversation will go south really quick.

I think heads will spin when they find out how much everything costs here. You say they'll need things that create more jobs- how will they pay for these things? Many people who come from Mexico have never been to school. What should be done with them? Sure, jobs exist for them and they can make decent money, but I know of at least one guy who never went to school and he made terrible life decisions- that comes with a cost.

 

[highfigh]

Sorry, read flamethrowers and got distracted.

Damn, wrote that and got distracted again.

It's definitely not an easy answer. The central American countries have huge issues with crime and gangs due to the money involved in drugs. Add in poverty and corruption and I fully understand why they want to come to the US. We do have jobs for them. The argument that immigrants and illegals take jobs away from US Citizens is a false narative. US Citizens have a key advantage - they speak US english (excluding certain parts of the south). Besides, how may US citizens want a crap job like working in a slaughter house or picking produce in the hot sun for 10-12 hours a day? US Citizens don't so that is why we need immigrants.

It is a complex issue and I'm certainly one with ideas but I also realize my ideas may not work. I do not pretend to have all the answers. The ones with families simply want to give their children a chance at a better life. A chance to live without dying in gang violence before they reach 16 years of age. If we could get people off of drugs, the lack of demand would cut the cash to the cartels and the gangs. The gangs would just move into other revenue streams like prostitution, "protection" schemes, etc. So that isn't going away. Ultimately, the poverty situation in Central America needs to be fixed to cut down on the desire to come to the US. All the drug and cartel wars in Mexico has the same effect.

No easy answer. None at all. We have need of people to fill jobs with people willing to work crap hours for low pay. No one wants a McBurger that costs $10 so it's cheap labor or automate.

Vet them. Cut the riff raff out. There are plenty of people who will employ the ones that are legit.

If the leaders of the countries where these people originate would pull their heads out of their butts, they would help their own countries.

 

[highfigh]

What fun would that be?

Seriously though, what is there to debate about? There is a process to seek legal asylum. Anyone can and should be able to seek asylum, but not anyone should be granted asylum if they do not qualify for it. The USA is a signatory to refugee treaties that obligate this. The people in the caravan should be processed as asylum seekers, and if they are found to qualify for asylum, let them in. If they don't, send them back.

That's what we do now. The problem is that the checkpoints aren't the only place to pass through.

 

[highfigh]

My only response to people that don't want them here is, put yourself in their shoes. If the US went to hell and turned into a 3rd world country and Canada became the place to be, you bet your ass I would be trying to get my family over there.

Imagine people walking into your yard and wanting to live there, then wanted you and others to pay them to do things (they create jobs by wanting things, right?). You didn't invite them, but there they are. How would they be fed? What about sanitary facilities, water, trash disposal, medical care, etc?

 

[Drunkpenguin]

Imagine people walking into your yard and wanting to live there, then wanted you and others to pay them to do things (they create jobs by wanting things, right?). You didn't invite them, but there they are. How would they be fed? What about sanitary facilities, water, trash disposal, medical care, etc?

How is that any different from you adding a baby to the country?

I dont define people by race or geography, I just see humans. Humans who are looking to better their lives while other humans are telling them to goto hell. I find it sad.