The SEPARATES vs. AVR Thread

[Mikado463]

I'm sure they prefer to sell you their ML amps that cost $20K.

But the flagship JBL Everest speaker system costs a lot more than the Revel Salon2, and the JBL system uses Crown amps rebadged as JBL, not Mark Levinson amps.

Ahhhh .... the Synthesis line up, very nice indeed, I damn near bought a pair of the K2S9900's before settling on my Studio II's. With that being said the Everest DD67000's you speak off are incredibly efficient speakers so mating them with Crown amps works nicely. As for those SDA amps, don't let their power fool you........ they don't 'double down', rather power becomes halved into a 2 ohm load. Not an issue though with the Synthesis line of speakers, the Salon's, not so efficient.

 

[PENG]

McIntosh? That means you prefer the Denon X3400/4400 over Emotiva.

Correct, in the room where I don't need the extra power.

 

[RichB]

Bass peaks and suck-outs often exceed +/- 7db in residential rooms. In my experience it is quite possible to discern differences of 3db in the bottom three bass octaves, because while hearing is logarithmic sense of touch isn't. Double the power at 30Hz is felt.

With 1/12th octave smoothing I shoot for +/- 3db in the bass at my listening seat, which I've sort of achieved in my current room, but I couldn't achieve that in my previous room, which was significantly smaller. In the previous room I had a 52Hz room mode that I could only get down to a +5db peak relative to 40Hz. I thought it colored a few of my solo piano recordings versus I heard on really good headphones. For rock music the peak was euphonic I suspect.

I have been delayed by personal matters but I hope to get a comparative review of the ATI 522NC and 4002 completed by December.

Here is the graph here each line is smoothed at 1/48'th and represents an average of 3 measurement in stereo (top) and 4 measurements in nearfield mono.

There are some good illustrations of room interaction. Notice there is very little difference in stereo with a fraction of a DB at the top end in stereo mode but nearfield there is a pronounced difference. Weird.

- Rich

 

[Irvrobinson]

Here is the graph here each line is smoothed at 1/48'th and represents an average of 3 measurement in stereo (top) and 4 measurements in nearfield mono.
View attachment 26441
There are some good illustrations of room interaction. Notice there is very little difference in stereo with a fraction of a DB at the top end in stereo mode but nearfield there is a pronounced difference. Weird.

- Rich

What are the dimensions of your room? Is it carpeted?

 

[RichB]

What are the dimensions of your room? Is it carpeted?

No carpeted on the side with the speakers. There are 9 to 10' dropped ceiling.
The room is not square minimum 15' (wider in spots) and over 30' long.

- Rich

 

[Irvrobinson]

No carpeted on the side with the speakers. There are 9 to 10' dropped ceiling.
The room is not square minimum 15' (wider in spots) and over 30' long.

- Rich

Are the L&R speakers on a narrow wall or a wide wall?

 

[RichB]

Are the L&R speakers on a narrow wall or a wide wall?

Left is in a corner and right is close to the center of the room. That's where the had to go to be above the pool table.

- Rich

 

[Mikado463]

Left is in a corner and right is close to the center of the room. That's where the had to go to be above the pool table.

- Rich

not good ........

 

[Irvrobinson]

Left is in a corner and right is close to the center of the room. That's where the had to go to be above the pool table.

- Rich

I would have expected a lot more difference in stereo with a set-up like that.

 

[RichB]

I would have expected a lot more difference in stereo with a set-up like that.

Those were with the UMIK-1. I plan to remeasure with it and try some other mics: OmniMic2 or EMM-6. I have calibration files for all.

- Rich

 

[DigitalDawn]

As far as the "transistor sound" the Stereophile Emotiva review mentioned vs the ATI 18 series; I think I know what the reviewer meant. We noticed what only could be called a "tinny" slightly thin quality from the Emo amp. The ATI sounded much smoother and warmer without any loss of detail. Again, this was not a scientific, double-blind test, so take it as it is.

 

[PENG]

I have been delayed by personal matters but I hope to get a comparative review of the ATI 522NC and 4002 completed by December.

View attachment 26440

Here is the graph here each line is smoothed at 1/48'th and represents an average of 3 measurement in stereo (top) and 4 measurements in nearfield mono.
View attachment 26441
There are some good illustrations of room interaction. Notice there is very little difference in stereo with a fraction of a DB at the top end in stereo mode but nearfield there is a pronounced difference. Weird.

- Rich

I think we have had similar conversation before, that using REW/Umik-1 mic I have found time and again such graphs failed to tell apart any of my preamp, power amp, AVRs, AVP of any permutations. No surprise to me as I never could tell anything more than extremely subtle difference (if real..) differences by ears, but you are someone who could, so I am very curious about this whole exercise. Oh, I didn't even have to do any averaging, the differences (graphs) were little up to 1/48 smoothing or even with no smoothing in the lower frequencies that are not clouded by comb filtering effect.

When you said nearfield mono, did you mean like placing the mic at around 2 meters in front of each speaker, one at a time, whereas in stereo you meant from you listening position with both speakers on at the same time, i.e. setting REW to L+R output (or something similar using other software)?

 

[PENG]

As far as the "transistor sound" the Stereophile Emotiva review mentioned vs the ATI 18 series; I think I know what the reviewer meant. We noticed what only could be called a "tinny" slightly thin quality from the Emo amp. The ATI sounded much smoother and warmer without any loss of detail. Again, this was not a scientific, double-blind test, so take it as it is.

I think the variables are in the interpretation of the meaning of "night and day", and "much" that are most likely different among people, especially among audiophiles and/or audioholics.

 

[RichB]

When you said nearfield mono, did you mean like placing the mic at around 2 meters in front of each speaker, one at a time, whereas in stereo you meant from you listening position with both speakers on at the same time, i.e. setting REW to L+R output (or something similar using other software)?

The nearfield measurements are of the right-speaker (only) at about 8 inches to try to remove effects.
The stereo measurements are at approximately 10'. All measurements are taken at the same section only adjusting the volume to match and swapping the amplifier outputs. REW is uses so it should be a mono-sweep played through both channels.

- Rich

 

[Danzilla31]

I think the variables are in the interpretation of the meaning of "night and day", and "much" that are most likely different among people, especially among audiophiles and/or audioholics.

All I can tell you is I've been swapping back and forth between the Emotiva and the crowns and the crowns won out. So the Emotiva is being flipped as off today

 

[Danzilla31]

All I can tell you is I've been swapping back and forth between the Emotiva and the crowns and the crowns won out. So the Emotiva is being flipped as off today

Like you said it's just personal experience so may mean nothing but I like what I like and the crowns giv me more of what I like to hear. Whatever that is.

 

[RichB]

The XPA Gen3 are measurements differ from HomeTheaterHifi.

Stereophile (July 2017)
https://www.stereophile.com/content/emotiva-xpa-gen3-two-channel-power-amplifier-measurements'

HTHF (Feb 2017 - Measurements added later)
https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/amplifier/power-amplifier/emotiva-xpa-gen3-power-amplifier-review/

Their respective measurements for 19 + 20 kHz are approximately 1 watt are attached.

Stereophile shows noise at approximately -60 dB and HTHF -89 dB.

That is radically different. Different samples, either the methodologies are vastly different or the amps may have been updated.

- Rich

 

[snakeeyes]

Like you said it's just personal experience so may mean nothing but I like what I like and the crowns giv me more of what I like to hear. Whatever that is.

Which crowns do you have? Or do you still have them?

 

[PENG]

The nearfield measurements are of the right-speaker (only) at about 8 inches to try to remove effects.
The stereo measurements are at approximately 10'. All measurements are taken at the same section only adjusting the volume to match and swapping the amplifier outputs. REW is uses so it should be a mono-sweep played through both channels.

- Rich

Thank you, so those graphs can be compared directly to mine because we appear to have used the same software/hardware and methodology.

 

[PENG]

All I can tell you is I've been swapping back and forth between the Emotiva and the crowns and the crowns won out. So the Emotiva is being flipped as off today

I never heard any Emo amps and never like them, but apparently they have a lot of followers who also reported night and day difference of improvements simply by adding one of those amps to their AVRs. That just tells you how and why subjective reviews are not to be taken too seriously. By the way, so I guess you probably feel even the X4400H's internal amp could sound better than the XPA amp, to your ears anyway?