The SEPARATES vs. AVR Thread

[DigitalDawn]

It was not a scientific, double-blind test. But the difference was not subtle. To be honest, I was not expecting the results we encountered.

I'm sure the AQ would have been much closer with other (non-Emotiva) amplifier brands. See the so-so Stereophile review of the XPA Gen3 amplifier. ".... it also revealed the Emotiva's primary shortcoming: transistor sound."

 

[PENG]

No, I'm arguing that in-room response at the listening seat should be smooth, without some frequency ranges being exaggerated or recessed versus other ranges. And depending on the room's characteristics you may need some other equalization, placement considerations, or room treatments (e.g. carpets or other furniture) to make approaching accuracy possible.

That's more or less the point I tried to make earlier in ways nowhere near as good as you just did.. So he thought I meant I wanted flat, dull, non live like, non crystal clear and dynamic sound.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

It was not a scientific, double-blind test. But the difference was not subtle. To be honest, I was not expecting the results we encountered.

I'm sure the AQ would have been much closer with other (non-Emotiva) amplifier brands. See the so-so Stereophile review of the XPA Gen3 amplifier. ".... it also revealed the Emotiva's primary shortcoming: transistor sound."

The 'not subtle' difference in sound was a louder volume in one of the devices maybe?

Transistor sound. I wonder what that is.

 

[RichB]

That's more or less the point I tried to make earlier in ways nowhere near as good as you just did.. So he thought I meant I wanted flat, dull, non live like, non crystal clear and dynamic sound.

The veil is lifted again... that is good or bad depending what is under the veil.

- Rich

 

[PENG]

The 'not subtle' difference in sound was a louder volume in one of the devices maybe?

Transistor sound. I wonder what that is.

If anything, the Emo amps have a little higher sensitivity, at least on paper. The Stereophile bench tested the Gen3 and did show a little higher IMD. Probably fine in a blind listening comparison but it's not what I prefer regardless when there are so many other choices.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

If anything, the Emo amps have a little higher sensitivity, at least on paper. The Stereophile bench tested the Gen3 and did show a little higher IMD. Probably fine in a blind listening comparison but it's not what I prefer regardless when there are so many other choices.

But how does that explain the "transistor sound"?

"But the difference was not subtle. To be honest, I was not expecting the results we encountered."

Wow, all I can say is that they've got ears I don't have.

 

[Danzilla31]

It was not a scientific, double-blind test. But the difference was not subtle. To be honest, I was not expecting the results we encountered.

I'm sure the AQ would have been much closer with other (non-Emotiva) amplifier brands. See the so-so Stereophile review of the XPA Gen3 amplifier. ".... it also revealed the Emotiva's primary shortcoming: transistor sound."

Hi I'm learning about amps been putting a couple through my system. I read the article and could almost hear his polite wording underneath those words underlay a tone of issues. he had with the Emotiva. I'm wanting to learn here just what did he mean by transistor sound?

Reason I'm asking is I put some crown XLS on my system for awhile. And bought used some older Emotivas. For some reason hard to put in words I like the Crowns much much better. The Emotivas sound good don't get me wrong. But only good enough to play with till I flip them next year and run my avr on all crowns.

I don't quiet have the words. For me the Crowns were more neutral but not flat. More accurate to the source. They overemphasize nothing. The Emotivas just feel more harsh especially in highs and just feel brighter less neutral more coloring of the sound. I also felt the Crowns handled dynamics better. These differences weren't huge but they were there.

Maybe what your picking up on is what I'm noticing? Hopefully I might understand my reactions better if I better understand this concept of transistor sound. Thanks for any input

 

[Danzilla31]

Hi I'm learning about amps been putting a couple through my system. I read the article and could almost hear his polite wording underneath those words underlay a tone of issues. he had with the Emotiva. I'm wanting to learn here just what did he mean by transistor sound?

Reason I'm asking is I put some crown XLS on my system for awhile. And bought used some older Emotivas. For some reason hard to put in words I like the Crowns much much better. The Emotivas sound good don't get me wrong. But only good enough to play with till I flip them next year and run my avr on all crowns.

I don't quiet have the words. For me the Crowns were more neutral but not flat. More accurate to the source. They overemphasize nothing. The Emotivas just feel more harsh especially in highs and just feel brighter less neutral more coloring of the sound. I also felt the Crowns handled dynamics better. These differences weren't huge but they were there.

Maybe what your picking up on is what I'm noticing? Hopefully I might understand my reactions better if I better understand this concept of transistor sound. Thanks for any input

I'm well aware this could all be in my head maybe I just like the crowns better cuz I heard them first. But I have a feeling that's not it. Just don't know why

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

That's more or less the point I tried to make earlier in ways nowhere near as good as you just did.. So he thought I meant I wanted flat, dull, non live like, non crystal clear and dynamic sound.

So you were trying to make a very broad generalized vague "all of the above" politically-correct statement about wanting a "smooth" response, instead of an "exaggerated" response by using multimodal applications?

Isn't that what everyone wants?

A "smooth" response by doing whatever it takes (EQ, no EQ, room treatments, placements)?

But then what is the exact specific definition of a "smooth" IN-ROOM response?

It is +/- 1dB, +/-2dB, +/-3dB, +/-6dB, +/-7dB, or all of the above depending on the ACTUAL sound?

 

[Mikado463]

If anything, the Emo amps have a little higher sensitivity, at least on paper. The Stereophile bench tested the Gen3 and did show a little higher IMD. Probably fine in a blind listening comparison but it's not what I prefer regardless when there are so many other choices.

what class of amp(topology) are they ?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It was not a scientific, double-blind test. But the difference was not subtle. To be honest, I was not expecting the results we encountered.

I'm sure the AQ would have been much closer with other (non-Emotiva) amplifier brands. See the so-so Stereophile review of the XPA Gen3 amplifier. ".... it also revealed the Emotiva's primary shortcoming: transistor sound."

Personally I'm not a fan of Emotiva, but probably only because I don't like their aesthetics (too much blue cheese) or name (sounds delicate and feminine for an amp ). I have never done a direct comparison with their amps.

Speaking of ATI and Separates, I'm wondering why we still have not heard anything about the new ATP16 pre-pro that was mentioned about a year ago. I thought they were going to showcase the ATP16 during CEDIA back in September 2018?

 

[Irvrobinson]

So you were trying to make a very broad generalized vague "all of the above" politically-correct statement about wanting a "smooth" response, instead of an "exaggerated" response by using multimodal applications?

Isn't that what everyone wants?

A "smooth" response by doing whatever it takes (EQ, no EQ, room treatments, placements)?

But then what is the exact specific definition of a "smooth" IN-ROOM response?

It is +/- 1dB, +/-2dB, +/-3dB, +/-6dB, +/-7dB, or all of the above depending on the ACTUAL sound?

Bass peaks and suck-outs often exceed +/- 7db in residential rooms. In my experience it is quite possible to discern differences of 3db in the bottom three bass octaves, because while hearing is logarithmic sense of touch isn't. Double the power at 30Hz is felt.

With 1/12th octave smoothing I shoot for +/- 3db in the bass at my listening seat, which I've sort of achieved in my current room, but I couldn't achieve that in my previous room, which was significantly smaller. In the previous room I had a 52Hz room mode that I could only get down to a +5db peak relative to 40Hz. I thought it colored a few of my solo piano recordings versus I heard on really good headphones. For rock music the peak was euphonic I suspect.

 

[PENG]

But how does that explain the "transistor sound"?

I didn't call it that and I wouldn't..

 

[Danzilla31]

I didn't call it that and I wouldn't..

Hmmmm interesting just what the heck does that term mean and what was the reviewer trying to say when he used it in the Stereophile review of the Emotiva XPA-3? And why wouldn't you use Emotiva PENG? This is all just curiosity on my part my friend based partly on some experiences as well

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

For those who don't like the sound of Emotiva amps due to transistor sound or whatever, would you choose an AVR (Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, Sony) over the Emotiva pre-pro and amp separates?

What is the "lessor of 2 evils" here?

 

[PENG]

So you were trying to make a very broad generalized vague "all of the above" politically-correct statement about wanting a "smooth" response, instead of an "exaggerated" response by using multimodal applications?

Isn't that what everyone wants?

A "smooth" response by doing whatever it takes (EQ, no EQ, room treatments, placements)?

But then what is the exact specific definition of a "smooth" IN-ROOM response?

It is +/- 1dB, +/-2dB, +/-3dB, +/-6dB, +/-7dB, or all of the above depending on the ACTUAL sound?

For speakers, smooth and flat in-room response would mean free of resonance/ringing, sharp dips and bumps, but may have gentle bumps and dips with peaks of +/- 3 to 4 dB, give or take. Your Revels can do that easily, if you apply XT32 or better REQ to the 10 to 150 Hz range. I realize you either have a perfect room, and/or you don't prefer flat/accurate response. For me, I knew my real piano sounded exactly like a real piano in my room, but not as nice as the cheaper looking piano in my teacher's studio.

 

[Danzilla31]

For those who don't like the sound of Emotiva amps due to transistor sound or whatever, would you choose an AVR (Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, Sony) over the Emotiva pre-pro and amp separates?

What is the "lessor of 2 evils" here?

You guys are driving me crazy here What the heck is transistor sound? I'm beginning to think this is a made up word Lol

 

[PENG]

Hmmmm interesting just what the heck does that term mean and what was the reviewer trying to say when he used it in the Stereophile review of the Emotiva XPA-3? And why wouldn't you use Emotiva PENG? This is all just curiosity on my part my friend based partly on some experiences as well

Because I read that review, so I know it has much higher IMD than many other amps reviewed, and I never like their looks.

Some people would label harsh sound as transistor sound, I think that makes no sense but that's their choice of words they are entitled to...

 

[PENG]

For those who don't like the sound of Emotiva amps due to transistor sound or whatever, would you choose an AVR (Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, Sony) over the Emotiva pre-pro and amp separates?

What is the "lessor of 2 evils" here?

I know the AVR-X3400H and X4400H has the typical high end(McIntish) tube sound, does that answer your question?

 

[Mikado463]

Some people would label harsh sound as transistor sound, I think that makes no sense but that's their choice of words they are entitled to...

that's why I asked what class of amp are they, perhaps if it's something other than A/B then crosstalk or some other artifact creating the 'transistor sound' ??