Placement of rear surround speakers

[cameron paterson]

So right now I have a 5.1 setup with the surrounds about 5 feet off the ground, a little behind my seating position. With the rear surrounds do I want them farther behind the rear speakers I have now? And should they be pointed at my seating position? And still about 5 feet off the ground? Thanks for your time!

 

[lovinthehd]

How much space between your seating and the rear wall?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Here’s the general guideline. @lovinthehd asked the most important question. IMO, you should have about 5’ behind the LP.

 

[lovinthehd]

I was gonna say at least 4 feet....

 

[cameron paterson]

Space between seating and rear wall is about 6 feet. I am not doing atmos at the moment now, will just be 7.1.

 

[ryanosaur]

Gotta ask, please...
I've seen those charts many times now, and I know I've seen others mention placing the Surrounds and the Rear speakers for 7.x above ear level. (No atmos for me yet. I am experimenting with an old pair in front height, but not committed, might try wide placement too.)
My situation will probably have me placing surrounds closer to 110-115 (slightly behind my LP, and about 2' above ear (and that 115 is only if I don't have to move back once my towers come in)) on wall mounts, and ceiling mounting my Rears at about 140, but high, like 9'.
If the rears are mostly atmospheric to begin, and you're not using bi- or di- poles, wouldn't that help with avoiding... (is the word beaming? where the signal is too direct?)?
Is there something else I'm missing when it comes to surround placement?

Thanks!

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I was gonna say at least 4 feet....

Yeah 4 can probably work too. Personally that’s about as close as I would feel good about.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Gotta ask, please...
I've seen those charts many times now, and I know I've seen others mention placing the Surrounds and the Rear speakers for 7.x above ear level. (No atmos for me yet. I am experimenting with an old pair in front height, but not committed, might try wide placement too.)
My situation will probably have me placing surrounds closer to 110-115 (slightly behind my LP, and about 2' above ear (and that 115 is only if I don't have to move back once my towers come in)) on wall mounts, and ceiling mounting my Rears at about 140, but high, like 9'.
If the rears are mostly atmospheric to begin, and you're not using bi- or di- poles, wouldn't that help with avoiding... (is the word beaming? where the signal is too direct?)?
Is there something else I'm missing when it comes to surround placement?

Thanks!

I think your placement options are pretty good. Personally don’t like bipoles or dipoles, as I prefer more precise imaging. What happens in the surrounds is largely dependent on the movie/soundtrack, but I would not agree that the content is mostly atmospheric. That ship sailed a long time ago. Even kids movies can have great directionality connected to the action.

The beaming you asked about as also called hotspotting and usually occurs when your too close to the surrounds like in a small room. Bipoles can help this but if you don’t have a full couch very often with someone on the ends near the speakers I wouldn’t worry about it.

 

[ryanosaur]

Very cool, thank you for the feedback!

but I would not agree that the content is mostly atmospheric. That ship sailed a long time ago.

I don't have the recent experience to really know first hand: my old Onkyo was pretty poor at processing as it turns out. (Whadya expect for a $500 HTIB from 2008? I couldn't figure out why so much stuff rattled with the old sub, but when I plugged it into the Marantz I'm using now, the rattling stopped, even though I'm running it louder. First hand lesson about distortion and signal clipping.)
Regardless, having spent months looking through audio websites and speaker companies, I am surprised at the proliferation of the quasi bi-pole design: Monitor Audio, Martin Logan, PSB, SVS, Klipsch, Emotiva, etc. At first I was really intrigued and started questing out those options, but the more I researched them, the more I started questioning why. Seemed to make more sense to purchase a better bookshelf pair with better overall performance than any of those "effect surrounds" usually offer, and usually for the same price too.

Again, thank you.

 

[cameron paterson]

So should I put the rear surrounds a little bit closer together than the side walls?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

So should I put the rear surrounds a little bit closer together than the side walls?

Yes. Can’t remember how wide the room is but maybe 4-6’ apart should be ok.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Very cool, thank you for the feedback!

I don't have the recent experience to really know first hand: my old Onkyo was pretty poor at processing as it turns out. (Whadya expect for a $500 HTIB from 2008? I couldn't figure out why so much stuff rattled with the old sub, but when I plugged it into the Marantz I'm using now, the rattling stopped, even though I'm running it louder. First hand lesson about distortion and signal clipping.)
Regardless, having spent months looking through audio websites and speaker companies, I am surprised at the proliferation of the quasi bi-pole design: Monitor Audio, Martin Logan, PSB, SVS, Klipsch, Emotiva, etc. At first I was really intrigued and started questing out those options, but the more I researched them, the more I started questioning why. Seemed to make more sense to purchase a better bookshelf pair with better overall performance than any of those "effect surrounds" usually offer, and usually for the same price too.

Again, thank you.

Hard to say exactly why your old gear was acting the way it was really. The rattling probably got better due to Audyssey flattening out the response, whereas before you had a peak at a certain frequency causing problems.
I think the bi/di pole thing CAN be useful in very limited situations where you have a small space, and listeners close to the speakers. I personally dislike them altogether despite the fact lots of others due enjoy them. It’s just a preference thing where I enjoy better accuracy delivered by monopoles. Fwiw, taking the special circumstances out of the equation, I think speaker manufacturers just build them for the ones in the hobby who are stuck on the old idea of surround speakers are only there for music and ambiance. While most soundtracks use them in that way, there is sooooo much more to it. Just the other night my kids had me watch Hotel Transylvania 3 with them. I was blown away by directionality and imaging of the sounds. Lfe was also surprisingly deep, as I would have expected a 30hz fart fest with not much regard to bass performance. To be clear, it was not a bass fest, but bass was used very nicely and poignantly.

 

[ryanosaur]

The rattling probably got better due to Audyssey flattening out the response,

Here's the more fun part of that. I haven't even messed with Audyssey on the Marantz yet. That's how good it sounds over those little speakers! I will when I get my big-boy kit ordered up soon. All I've done so far is to adjust for speaker distances.
Music that I know well and have loved for decades sounds cleaner and deeper through the Marantz without Audyssey compared to the Onkyo with Audyssey. Where the speakers used to not reproduce, say 1/8 of the lower bass in Hip Hop, now its all there on the same speakers! A great example is Biscuits (Method Man, Tical 1994) where the low bass note would just ghost out.

I think the bi/di pole thing CAN be useful in very limited situations where you have a small space, and listeners close to the speakers. I personally dislike them altogether despite the fact lots of others due enjoy them.

Hope I didn't come across as derisive... and though I don't have first hand experience with them, I agree with your sentiment that they are highly specialized and useful in that manner: smaller rooms with more near-field placement of the speaker. My office/quasi-cave is a place where I could benefit from those if I set up better audio there, whereas my main room (8000'3+) has the space to support something better.

Again, Thank you, William!
Best,
R

 

[cameron paterson]

4 to 6 feet apart sounds kinda close doesn't it?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

4 to 6 feet apart sounds kinda close doesn't it?

Why?

 

[cameron paterson]

Well my room is 13' wide.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Lol. Ok, so how far do you think they should be?
They’re not supposed to be out to wall like side surrounds.

 

[ryanosaur]

Forgive my interjection, please.

Well my room is 13' wide.

How far apart are your L/R speakers in front? And you from them?
How many "seats?" 3-4 person couch? 7 Chairs? (I ask because it dovetails very nicely with the question I posed earlier about Beaming/Hotspotting.)
And with 6' between your back and the rear wall? Or all seats and the rear wall?

 

[cameron paterson]

The L/R speakers are 13' apart and 16' away from my couch. I have a 135" screen and projector. Its a 4 person couch. Couch is 6 feet from back wall. I was guessing about 10' apart from eachother.

 

[cameron paterson]

I could do 7' apart if you think that's better than 10'.