The Dolby Atmos, DTS-X, and Auro-3D Discussion Thread

[andyblackcat]

More VHS 240p

THE FLY II (1989)
VHS Pal / Hi-Fi Dolby Stereo / DSU

One thing I started to take note of is the audio level meter on the JVC HR-D725EK was that the levels was low on Red Dawn, and currently THE FLY II, where on CIC video/Paramount, Black Rain the levels was high.

I used to have one of these small Sony monitors that had plastic touch screen film over the screen to be used with an interactive Sony lasermax player for educational learning discs.

240p with a whole lot of wear and tear noise. The tracking isn't helping much with this rental VHS tape which I'm surprised it still plays and hasn't been played on Hi-Fi VHS player since my last one head drum got worse.

 

[Bookmark]

Outside of mainframes and terminals, this was one of the first I used.

Perhaps in disguise, I think these turned up in a fair few films.

I do like the Fly remakes. Fortunately mine at at least Dvds now. I did like the original with Vincent Price, I will pretty much watch him in anything. Favorites of those are The Raven and A Comedy of Terrors AKA Tales of Terror, and we watched Master of the World the other day. Still looking for a good Roger Corman /Edgar Allen Poe boxset.

 

[andyblackcat]

I happen to have these VHS films on DVD and bluray just like the vintage VHS technology see how it plays with the DSU.

I don't think that computer was used in Wargames (1983) not sure if its been used in ALIEN (1979)?

THE FLY II getting warmed up for the last 25mins of action.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I saw Underworld 2003 in ATMOS.

I think the ATMOS track is a significant improvement over the regular blu-ray versions.

If you want to show off your overhead ATMOS speakers, this movie is a great demo for it, although it may not be all natural.

The movie is very load. But I could definitely hear the ATMOS speakers in action.

It seems like the overhead speakers are engaged every few minutes.

In comparison, the ATMOS speakers in “Pride, Prejudice, and Zombies” are often engaged during quieter scenes.

I still prefer PP&Z for ATMOS demo, but obviously that’s just a personal preference.

In conclusion, Underworld ATMOS has a very active ATMOS presentation.

And, of course, Kate’s derrières are as pleasant as ever.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Matrix Reloaded and Revolutions Remastered 4K/ATMOS BD’s will be released Oct 30, so I will have no choice but to buy them both.

 

[Danzilla31]

More VHS 240p

THE FLY II (1989)
VHS Pal / Hi-Fi Dolby Stereo / DSU

View attachment 26334View attachment 26335View attachment 26336

One thing I started to take note of is the audio level meter on the JVC HR-D725EK was that the levels was low on Red Dawn, and currently THE FLY II, where on CIC video/Paramount, Black Rain the levels was high.

View attachment 26338
I used to have one of these small Sony monitors that had plastic touch screen film over the screen to be used with an interactive Sony lasermax player for educational learning discs.

240p with a whole lot of wear and tear noise. The tracking isn't helping much with this rental VHS tape which I'm surprised it still plays and hasn't been played on Hi-Fi VHS player since my last one head drum got worse.

I love that movie

 

[Danzilla31]

Matrix Reloaded and Revolutions Remastered 4K/ATMOS BD’s will be released Oct 30, so I will have no choice but to buy them both.

I don't think it'll be in atmos but a new blue ray version of Streets of Fire is coming out. Hopefully it will be able to upmix but I have to buy it cuz it was one of my all time favorite 80's flicks when I was younger.! Second to The Warriors of course.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Just saw Underworld Blood Wars in ATMOS, which I think is definitely better than the ATMOS track in Underworld 2003.

The ATMOS speakers are very active and more natural, although some effects still aren’t totally natural.

Dialogue is always clear.

Bass is great.

During the scene where Selene and David are sitting in the car while the rain pours above, I felt like I was sitting in the car with them hearing the rain pouring down on the roof.

This might be among the best ATMOS tracks and surpass the “PPZ” ATMOS track.

Very clean sound.

 

[Bookmark]

Well glad you kindasortaliked it. Worry not, you never know, they may do a sequel to PP&Z, it is hinted at. Underworld is a truly bombastic soundtrack with a pert touch of derriere. For obsessive completeness, I did Evolution and then finished off the Rise of the Lycans. I think they all up mixed well although I did notice the 2nd and 3rd requiring a bit more volume to work as well.

Blood wars was 2016 so it should be a proper Atmos mix. I did watch a friend's Blood wars on the Xbox one in 4K, but we didn't have the Atmos set up at the time. May be get to see it again.

Underworld and the Matrix trilogy will be, hopefully professional, up mixes if they did not reconstruct from the source elements to do actual Atmos. I don't know what the thinking is regarding these, they are redoing all the John Carpenter films and whilst they may clean up the original film stock, I am not sure they are doing the same for the audio.

For no particular reason also watched The A Team. "No, their trying to fly a Tank!" It's a bit of fun, but the up mix was ok, considering it's an action beast.

 

[andyblackcat]

"Like the AVR's of the previous century, we, too, would become obsolete. Pity, because I lived for it."

Underworld (2003) R2 DVD theatrical
Dolby digital / DSU / THX sound system

Listening with the DSU with (five screen muted) so I can focus on what the sides/rear/overheads are doing got the below surrounds switched off at present.

Oh the car scene with rain. I think the DSU is doing its best at unraveling it I can sense hear it above sides and across the five screen channels.

I ordered the 4k few months ago but someone decided to play a practical joke and mailed me pair of trousers lol I got partly it refunded. Anyone want pair of free trousers bit long for me.

Also released in SDDS 8channel.

 

[andyblackcat]

Some more vintage 240p VHS tonight.

The Hunt For Red October (1990)
VHS Pal / Hi-Fi Dolby Stereo / DSU / THX Sound System

I have the DVD R2 like to listen to the VHS sound.

Switched the players Hi-Fi to linear Stereo mode which seems to have a tiny phasing difference between Hi-Fi mode and linear. High frequency is okay. No apparent hiss that I can hear with softer scenes with quiet background with fader turned up, I can't hear any hiss.

I projected this in Dolby SR, back around 1990 while working at UCI cinemas tower park, 10 plex, in one of its two larger screens I think it was inter-looped between screens 5 and 6 that had the original surrounds mounted to the ceiling. In the foyer was a large cardboard submarine con tower that looked cool.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So in Daredevil S03 “The Devil You Know” episode, the 4 ATMOS Ceiling Speakers are awesome.

In Episode 10 “Karen”, at the beginning at the college Frat party, the bass is INSANE. Holy macaroni.


Good ATMOS Ceiling effects:
The car accident on the bridge.

Episode 11:
Psychological inner voices and sounds.
Helicopters overhead.

E12:
Excellent helicopter overhead.

I am impressed. Every bit as impressive as most of the blu-ray ATMOS and better than most DTSX BD I’ve seen.

 

[Bookmark]

Some more vintage 240p VHS tonight.

The Hunt For Red October (1990)
VHS Pal / Hi-Fi Dolby Stereo / DSU / THX Sound System

I admire the dedication Andy. Personally I am waiting for Waterworld Limited Edition in December. 3 versions, the theatrical, the TV cut and the Ulysses cut. I am not sure which of the two extended cuts I saw and may still have somewhere. It was recorded on VHS from the Syfy channel, by a friend, many years ago and is about 40min longer than the original. It has way more Dennis Hopper being nuts and even sorts out the plot a bit. Yes, it's just Mad Max on the water, yes it cost too much and had so many problems, but I still like it.

Last night we did a couple for remakes, The Omen (2006) and Friday the 13th (2009). It's near Halloween after all. The Omen up mixes surprisingly well. The film is not as good as the original with Gregory Peck or the particularly well chosen Harvey Stephens, who does appear briefly in the remake, but it is still ok. Friday the 13th I spent most of my time rooting for Jason. The walking corpses really are an unlikable bunch.

 

[andyblackcat]

Bookmark.
I seen it least 3 times in Dolby Stereo at one other cinema ABC screen 1, Bournemouth and once at UCI tower park, poole in one two larger screens, screen 5, in dts with stereo overhead surrounds it was immersive from the strat of the film with the soft gentle ambiance of the ocean waters and the "Mariner" popping up with some treasures of the forgotten world beneath the ocean.

Had it on THX laserdisc then sold it why? I don't know for a DVD but the artwork was far better on the Laserdisc cover over a tiny small bit of artwork on a DVD cover plus no LFE.1 and again same with bluray when I got that no LFE.1 plays at anytime so must be a 5.0 and I wouldn't be surprised if an LFE.1 has been created in the first place and now going to find its way onto son of the bluray or WaterMilkWorld as like how many times has it been Milked? I be surprised if a reviewer even notices earlier releases without an LFE.1. Same was with Speed (1994) the DVD first pressing no LFE.1 until the secound release many years later had an LFE.1 and even the THX laserrdisc Dolby AC-3 no LFE.1. Same with Vertigo (1958) no LFE.1 on first DVD pressing yet in the documentary the narrator (Roddy McDowall) mentions Vertigo being remixed at the Hitchcock theater in dts 6 channel. So why doesn't the DVD have 6 channels I only counted 5 channels. The encoding may show 6 channels illuminated on the display doesn't really mean its true.

 

[Defcon]

How is Atmos adoption? I'm going to guess that the vast majority of its users are people with dedicated HT rooms in which they installed dedicated height speakers. And that the vast majority of people who have their HT in regular living rooms/apartments, don't.

How popular are the upfiring speakers w.r.t sales? Every single discussion/review always says they don't work very well. IMO its a shame that surround rears, front height speakers, dipoles and other configs, which used to be rather effective, have all but disappeared and everyone hypes just one thing - the upfiring speakers.

7.1 was a pretty good setup but again no one talks about it, its all 5.1.2 and then they tell you to go 5.1.4 because otherwise you wont get panning effect.

It all seems like a calculated money grab considering the fact that the upgrade cost from 7ch->9ch is huge not to mention 4 ceiling speakers is impossible for non-dedicated theaters.

And the reviews of Atmos are not even that stellar. No one has ever said its a night/day difference e.g. the way going from even 2.0 -> PL II is.

 

[Danzilla31]

How is Atmos adoption? I'm going to guess that the vast majority of its users are people with dedicated HT rooms in which they installed dedicated height speakers. And that the vast majority of people who have their HT in regular living rooms/apartments, don't.

How popular are the upfiring speakers w.r.t sales? Every single discussion/review always says they don't work very well. IMO its a shame that surround rears, front height speakers, dipoles and other configs, which used to be rather effective, have all but disappeared and everyone hypes just one thing - the upfiring speakers.

7.1 was a pretty good setup but again no one talks about it, its all 5.1.2 and then they tell you to go 5.1.4 because otherwise you wont get panning effect.

It all seems like a calculated money grab considering the fact that the upgrade cost from 7ch->9ch is huge not to mention 4 ceiling speakers is impossible for non-dedicated theaters.

And the reviews of Atmos are not even that stellar. No one has ever said its a night/day difference e.g. the way going from even 2.0 -> PL II is.

I'm one of the few lol many who can't have a dedicated theater room. My listening area is 1/3 of my big open living area. Although it was challenging to get everything set up right it's come a long way and I have a 7.2.4 setup that I'm happy with for now. I can always improve but where I've got to now will keep me happy for 2 or 3 years.

I have a lot of friends like me who can't quiet make the leap into dedicated theater rooms but who have a setup in living rooms etc that sounds pretty amazing. It takes some dedication some compromise but a lot more people are doing it then I would have thought. Some setups are higher quality then others but you do what you can with the budget you have

I don't have the numbers on how well upfiring speakers sell but I'd wager unfortunately they sell well. I say unfortunately because it's a horrible compromise in speaker design and it's just a very ineffective way to get atmos results.
But I understand that WAF, budget, and living constraints leave some people no choice to have to go that route and I'm glad there is an option out there for them that is going to get them some results however mixed or inconsistent they can sometimes be

I'd say hearing a good atmos system requires getting it set up right. The majority of individuals who have systems with upfiring speakers let's say who then chime in stating it doesn't sound impressive well I'd maintain look at your choices in setup compared to what the guidelines for a true atmos setup is before you can say it doesn't sound better then another format. I've heard atmos systems from friends setups which blew me away not just in pure atmos but sometimes with upmixes and they inspired me to go after my setup I'm building now. It sounds fantastic and I need to lower my surrounds to really pull it off correctly. But it still sounds great

I'm not sure where your getting this hype about upfiring speakers maybe with marketing but you go to any established forum with experienced members and they avoid those setups like the black plague. The consensus is in ceiling, heights if positioned correctly, and they're are also some excellent options such as SVS prime elevations. You can even get creative and ceiling mount bookshelves speakers if set up in the correct position if I understand it correctly. That gives customers not just dedicated theater rooms but the average Joe great ways to achieve the sound.

All setups over the years have been calculated money grabs if you wanna view it that way. From 5.1 to 7.1 to 5.2 7.2 whatever each upgrade costs the consumer. But each setup has for many vastly improved there enjoyment of surround experience. And I believe this change will as well. Each format got better over time as the format and programming and development all got better and better at implementing the effects the format was after. Although still new I can say for me I'm glad I went with Atmos. Already even in upmixes the sound is just better more immersive. I can feel sounds going all around me and it just sucks me in. And we havent even seen how far developers will eventually be able to go with it yet.

However I'm not knocking 5.1 or 7.1 setups etc. I loved my 7.2 setup which still sounds great today. If some can't upgrade there still going to have a great experience. And that's great for everyone so many great setups the consumer can decide which setup is optimal for me? Well that my take and personal experience on your question hopefully other members will be able to give you there own experiences on the questions you've presented about atmos.

Good topic am interested to hear others take on it

 

[Bookmark]

Like Danzilla mine too is a living room, although probably a lot more messy. Wires and boxes everywhere.

I think it would be

None > Tv <=> Tablets/phones > Sound bars > other All in One boxes > dedicated stereo > AVR > Processor/Amp > dedicated room.

Stereo > 3.1 > 5.1 > 7.1 > 5.1.2 > 7.1.2 > 5.1.4 > 7.1.4 > 5.1.6 > 7.1.6 > x.1.x setups.

Some people employ a combination of solutions, since not everything needs to be the full on Atmos/Dts:X experience. In reality AVR/Processors are maybe only a few % of the overall market and dedicated rooms are a small fraction of that. Additionally if the AVR/processor is capable, then 5.1.2 can be got out of an existing 7.1 system. Won't necessarily be a great improvement, but it can be done with minimal changes.

I would probably disagree with Danzilla regarding up firing speaker numbers. At most it is maybe a 1/3rd of a fairly small number to start with. It can be quite expensive solution relative to regular bookshelf or other small speakers. Putting in 4 will likely cost between 1 and 2 grand. Yes, it is probably more popular with the WAF, minimalist room aficionados and the soundbars crowd, where it can be partially built in, but it is still going to be quite a relatively small number. Remember there are literally billions of TVs and Phones. Soundbars maybe a few hundred million and most of those are just used for improving the TV. Of that, it is a much smaller number who actually have and use Atmos/Dts:X with them and all the necessary additional speakers. Remember a "good" Atmos/Dts:X soundbar will probably run as much, if not more that an AVR and speakers, they are usually well over a grand. 50 dollar boxes out of Wall Mart are not capable.

We here on the forums are a small self selecting crowd. Most people don't have the money to waste on this type of gear purely for entertainment, other real world pressures take priority.

Netflix has a subscriber base around 130 Million and roughly the same again for Amazon. But many like myself have both. Number of TV house holds is 1.7 Billion. Mobile phones are close to 5 Billion. although that number is suspect for a number of reasons. World population is around 7.6 Billion.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

How is Atmos adoption? I'm going to guess that the vast majority of its users are people with dedicated HT rooms in which they installed dedicated height speakers. And that the vast majority of people who have their HT in regular living rooms/apartments, don't.

I agree.

People who already own 5.1, and especially 7.1/9.1 are a lot more likely to upgrade to ATMOS than everyone else.

People who own dedicated HT rooms are more likely to upgrade to Atmos than people who have HT in their living rooms or upstair bonus rooms.

How popular are the upfiring speakers w.r.t sales? Every single discussion/review always says they don't work very well. IMO its a shame that surround rears, front height speakers, dipoles and other configs, which used to be rather effective, have all but disappeared and everyone hypes just one thing - the upfiring speakers.

Like Gene says in his review, up-firing speakers make little sense playing billiards with sound.

The salient thing about the current Atmos setup is having speakers ABOVE you firing down so that you can hear CLEARLY (not overpowered by all the other speakers). Most of the Atmos sounds are rain/thunder from above, planes/helicopters from above, intercom/voices from above, tunnels/caves/roofs from above.

7.1 was a pretty good setup but again no one talks about it, its all 5.1.2 and then they tell you to go 5.1.4 because otherwise you wont get panning effect.

Good speakers can image well. Look at 2Ch music. Speakers can image the vocals dead center even when the 2 speakers are 10 FT apart. It sounds like there is a center speaker. That's great imaging from 2 speakers.

It's the same way with ceiling speakers. 2 ceiling speakers are capable of imaging well. Thus, they can image and pan every well.

I have 5.1.4. But when I change to 5.1.2, I notice that I still get extremely good panning and imaging.

The salient thing is to make sure you get good volume level from the 2 overhead ceiling speakers so that they are not "overpowered" by the other 5.1 speakers/subs.

Having 4 ceiling speakers are better, especially if your ceiling speakers can't image/pan as well. Not all ceiling speakers are created equal. But if your ceiling speakers can image/pan extremely well, 2 ceiling speakers will sound great.

As for 7.1/9.1 vs 5.1.2, it is truly NIGHT/DAY difference! There is no way you can get Atmos sounds of rain/thunder from above, planes/helicopters from above, intercom/voices from above, tunnels/caves/roofs from above from the 9.1 speakers on the GROUND. It is a night and day difference. No virtual speakers or imaging capability of any speakers can reproduce these sounds from ABOVE.

It all seems like a calculated money grab considering the fact that the upgrade cost from 7ch->9ch is huge not to mention 4 ceiling speakers is impossible for non-dedicated theaters.

It is definitely a FIRST WORLD problem.

It costs more money and it is difficult for most people to install ceiling speakers.

But ceiling speakers don't have to be traditional ceiling-flush-mount speakers. If they could "raise" the rear bookshelf speakers from "ground" level all the way up to the ceiling level and point those speakers down directly at them, they could get the Atmos overhead effects. Again, the salient thing is to have speakers above you pointing down directly at you. They make inexpensive wire covers that you can paint over to nicely conceal the small speaker wires going up the rear corners of the room. There are ways to camouflage those little speaker wires.

And the reviews of Atmos are not even that stellar. No one has ever said its a night/day difference e.g. the way going from even 2.0 -> PL II is.

PL-II should not even be used in the same book as DSU, much less ATMOS.

DSU (which you could only get with an ATMOS AVR or Pre-pro) is 100% better than PL II. That alone is night and day.

As I've said before, when you've heard extremely convincing overhead effects of Atmos from overhead speakers that can NEVER be reproduced with even a million ground-level speakers, you will see that it can be night and day difference.

Think about that. You could put a $1,000,000 worth of speakers on the GROUND level and they would never produce the OVERHEAD effects from ATMOS.

 

[Danzilla31]

I agree.

People who already own 5.1, and especially 7.1/9.1 are a lot more likely to upgrade to ATMOS than everyone else.

People who own dedicated HT rooms are more likely to upgrade to Atmos than people who have HT in their living rooms or upstair bonus rooms.



Like Gene says in his review, up-firing speakers make little sense playing billiards with sound.

The salient thing about the current Atmos setup is having speakers ABOVE you firing down so that you can hear CLEARLY (not overpowered by all the other speakers). Most of the Atmos sounds are rain/thunder from above, planes/helicopters from above, intercom/voices from above, tunnels/caves/roofs from above.



Good speakers can image well. Look at 2Ch music. Speakers can image the vocals dead center even when the 2 speakers are 10 FT apart. It sounds like there is a center speaker. That's great imaging from 2 speakers.

It's the same way with ceiling speakers. 2 ceiling speakers are capable of imaging well. Thus, they can image and pan every well.

I have 5.1.4. But when I change to 5.1.2, I notice that I still get extremely good panning and imaging.

The salient thing is to make sure you get good volume level from the 2 overhead ceiling speakers so that they are not "overpowered" by the other 5.1 speakers/subs.

Having 4 ceiling speakers are better, especially if your ceiling speakers can't image/pan as well. Not all ceiling speakers are created equal. But if your ceiling speakers can image/pan extremely well, 2 ceiling speakers will sound great.

As for 7.1/9.1 vs 5.1.2, it is truly NIGHT/DAY difference! There is no way you can get Atmos sounds of rain/thunder from above, planes/helicopters from above, intercom/voices from above, tunnels/caves/roofs from above from the 9.1 speakers on the GROUND. It is a night and day difference. No virtual speakers or imaging capability of any speakers can reproduce these sounds from ABOVE.




It is definitely a FIRST WORLD problem.

It costs more money and it is difficult for most people to install ceiling speakers.

But ceiling speakers don't have to be traditional ceiling-flush-mount speakers. If they could "raise" the rear bookshelf speakers from "ground" level all the way up to the ceiling level and point those speakers down directly at them, they could get the Atmos overhead effects. Again, the salient thing is to have speakers above you pointing down directly at you. They make inexpensive wire covers that you can paint over to nicely conceal the small speaker wires going up the rear corners of the room. There are ways to camouflage those little speaker wires.



PL-II should not even be used in the same book as DSU, much less ATMOS.

DSU (which you could only get with an ATMOS AVR or Pre-pro) is 100% better than PL II. That alone is night and day.

As I've said before, when you've heard extremely convincing overhead effects of Atmos from overhead speakers that can NEVER be reproduced with even a million ground-level speakers, you will see that it can be night and day difference.

Think about that. You could put a $1,000,000 worth of speakers on the GROUND level and they would never produce the OVERHEAD effects from ATMOS.

Man I agree with you 100% I put in Annihlation last night after I connected the new Emotiva I just bought. It has an atmos soundtrack. There is a scene in the beginning where the ambulance is pulled over. Man Wow you can hear the helicopter fly overhead. From front left way over to front right then back around behind you. It sounds really super cool. To feel it flying over you like that. Never experienced anything like that before.

Man I need to rerun audyssey to make a fair comparison. But I swear after listening to both the crowns and a full emotiva setup. Shoot Im actually leaning towards the Crowns. Still need to calibrate audyssey to be fair tho on my comparison. But I am way impressed with a class D pro amp and with size weight and how cool they are when running the sound you get for the buck. Very impressed. I'm gonna flip the 1002's and definettly move up the line. Would like to have more power with the models further up the line. But man very very impressed. And they are so much easier to deal with. Sorry to get off topic but that popped out last night while listening

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Man I agree with you 100% I put in Annihlation last night after I connected the new Emotiva I just bought. It has an atmos soundtrack. There is a scene in the beginning where the ambulance is pulled over. Man Wow you can hear the helicopter fly overhead. From front left way over to front right then back around behind you. It sounds really super cool. To feel it flying over you like that. Never experienced anything like that before.

I was very skeptical of ATMOS for a very long time. I mean how could some ceiling speakers improve the sound that much?

But then you hear the many overhead effects (imaging, panning, etc.) and you realize that these effects could only be accomplished with ATMOS.

And then the icing on the cake was DSU/DTSNX and how these could take 2Ch materials and make them sound so dang great.

DSU/DTSNX put ProLogic-II and all other matrix-decoding software to shame. And people who don't own ATMOS AVR's don't know that.

People won't know what all of us on this thread are talking about unless they experience it for themselves.

ATMOS and DSU are awesome and absolutely NIGHT and DAY from everything else before.