4 uls-15 mk2’s vs 4 pb-2000’s

[William Lemmerhirt]

To be honest, I'm not really trying to tell him what do. I was just objecting to him suggesting that his subs are true subwoofers because they don't meet his performance expectation.

But it does meet his definition. Who cares if it’s not the same as yours. Or the dictionary’s...

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

You see what I sent

Pm sent

 

[Auditor55]

Also, according Earl Geddes, PhD., ultra low frequencies don't have room modes. Some enthusiast are so obsessed with what happening below 20HZ, that are spending $$$ on frequencies that can't be heard by the human ear. So it more important to get the subs to perform in the 200 HZ and below range, which I believe those BICs can do.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I didn't say I don't watch movies. Anyway, how do you have them placed? It sounds to me what you are describing and dealing with are room modes. Some people attribute boomy bass to a poor performing subs, however placement and or set up could be the problem. See below:

"In an enclosed space sound is reflected by the room's boundaries. At certain frequencies, two or more reflected sound waves can superimpose themselves on one another in such a way where stationary locations can be found where that frequency becomes very loud or very quiet. This is called a mode.
In every enclosed space there's a certain frequency at which the sound field can be divided into two parts. This frequency is called the Schröder frequency. In common living rooms it's about 150–300 Hz.

At higher frequencies, above the Schröder frequency, modes are not a big problem because there are so many. Two ears and a brain are very good in suppressing modes that otherwise would lead to coloration of sound (see Bilsen). Music has a more transient nature at higher frequencies and other effects play a major role: Sound-waves need time to travel through the room (about 34.4 cm per millisecond). If the difference between the direct sound and reflected sound is bigger than about 1 ms then our brain is capable of separating the two. However, up to 30-80ms delay only one sound sensation is perceived (precedence effect). Later arriving reflections are perceived as an echo. If the difference is smaller than 1 ms then the two (or more) sounds are melted into one (summing localization).

At frequencies below the Schröder frequency, modes become a problem. Our hearing needs a couple of cycles before it can determine a sound's timbre but in acoustically small rooms reflections become part of the sound almost instantly because wavelengths are in the range of the room's dimensions (e.g. 40 Hz = 8.6 m wavelength). So what we hear is dominated by the room and not by the loudspeaker anymore.
At lower frequencies there are fewer modes and they are more spaced relative to each other. This commonly leads to the typical sensation of "booming" or "one-note" bass or even no bass at all at certain frequencies. In those cases the in-room frequency response shows stationary peaks (booming sound) and dips (no sound), an effect boosted by rigid walls. Contrary to common belief, angled walls or irregular floor plans do not reduce modes. They just change the modal distribution pattern within a room.

Additional low frequency sound sources distributed throughout the room can smooth out low frequency modal peaks and dips. Fortunately we can't localize sound sources below 80 Hz hence additional subwoofers can be used to smooth the frequency response at any given listening position or over a certain listening area. Studies have shown that only 2 to 4 subwoofers are necessary to significantly reduce seat-to-seat differences and increase frequency smoothness at low frequencies (see Welti/Devantier).

Never said boomy bass. Said no extension.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Also, according Earl Geddes, PhD., ultra low frequencies don't have room modes. Some enthusiast are so obsessed with what happening below 20HZ, that are spending $$$ on frequencies that can't be heard by the human ear. So it more important to get the subs to perform in the 200 HZ and below range, which I believe those BICs can do.

This is horrible advice. Especially when most people cross at 80. Plus below 20hz isn’t super expensive either. Have you ever experienced 16hz shaking your couch? It’s awesome!!!!

 

[Auditor55]

But it does meet his definition. Who cares if it’s not the same as yours. Or the dictionary’s...

You asked if I could offer some help. We can help everyone in this hobby by being objective.

 

[Auditor55]

This is horrible advice. Especially when most people cross at 80. Plus below 20hz isn’t super expensive either. Have you ever experienced 16hz shaking your couch? It’s awesome!!!!

That's what I meant about being objective. Below 20 HZ cannot be heard.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

That's what I meant about being objective. Below 20 HZ cannot be heard.

Yep. But can shake your guts!

 

[Auditor55]

Never said boomy bass. Said no extension.

No, the gentlemen was complaining that his subs only perform at one frequency. "they’re not performing in both frequencies, just one, the high end"

The way this discussion have been going, I'm not certain what he means by high end, considering the fact that to a basshead, high end could mean 50 HZ. However it seems clear to me he is describing what some call a One Note Wonder Box.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

No, the gentlemen was complaining that his subs only perform at one frequency. "they’re not performing in both frequencies, just one, the high end"

The way this discussion have been going, I'm not certain what he means by high end, considering the fact that to a basshead, high end could mean 50 HZ. However it seems clear to me he is describing what some call a One Note Wonder Box.

I believe what he meant by “not performing in both frequencies” was that they’re only performing in the top of the passband which in this case is determined by the XO. Since the the low end is basically known to be around 28hz it was pretty obvious that he was referring to the bics lack of extension. Pretty sure you knew that too...

 

[2channel lover]

I guess I am a bass head when it comes to movies. When the bass hits I want it to kick my ass while I’m sitting there watching. When I’m listening to music I obviously want it to hit but I don’t want it over the top. I wanna enjoy the music

Post 111 & 112 convinced me to say this...don't settle. There's a good chance the ULS will suffice, but being a basshead myself, knowing the VTF goes lower, etc you may have buyer remorse...if wifey is ok with 4 boxes in the space, (she's pretty forgiving already) she'll be ok with 4 slightly larger boxes in the space.

 

[Reckel]

Post 111 & 112 convinced me to say this...don't settle. There's a good chance the ULS will suffice, but being a basshead myself, knowing the VTF goes lower, etc you may have buyer remorse...if wifey is ok with 4 boxes in the space, (she's pretty forgiving already) she'll be ok with 4 slightly larger boxes in the space.

I’m planning on ordering 2 vtf3s on Monday unless someone feels I should get vtf2s or maybe I’ll buy 4 new pl200s

 

[Auditor55]

I believe what he meant by “not performing in both frequencies” was that they’re only performing in the top of the passband which in this case is determined by the XO. Since the the low end is basically known to be around 28hz it was pretty obvious that he was referring to the bics lack of extension. Pretty sure you knew that too...

No I didn't know exactly what he meant.

 

[shadyJ]

I’m planning on ordering 2 vtf3s on Monday unless someone feels I should get vtf2s or maybe I’ll buy 4 new pl200s

What are you going to do with your existing PL200 subwoofers? It probably wouldn't take too long to sell them. You could also just pull the drivers out and stuff them in one huge cabinet and have a quad 12" subwoofer!

 

[Reckel]

What are you going to do with your existing PL200 subwoofers? It probably wouldn't take too long to sell them. You could also just pull the drivers out and stuff them in one huge cabinet and have a quad 12" subwoofer!

I want to sell them just to make some money back. They’re only listed on one local site where we live, haven’t put them on anything else yet. Not sure what the best site would be

 

[shadyJ]

I want to sell them just to make some money back. They’re only listed on one local site where we live, haven’t put them on anything else yet. Not sure what the best site would be

Try the classifieds section here at Audioholics. Also try Craigslist.

 

[lovinthehd]

Audiogon, usaudiomart are others.

 

[Reckel]

Isn’t it going to be a pain in the ass since I don’t have the boxes for two of them?

 

[lovinthehd]

Local pickup for subs is best. Shipping can get pricey and hopefully the boxes you have for them are suited to the rough treatment package services can exert (especially the closer to xmas you get). Might look thru ebay, too, particularly sold listings to see what they actually have gone for.

 

[Reckel]

Ok thx. I’m still going back n forth between vtf3s n vtf2s, ridiculous.