KEF Reference3 vs b&w 804 D3

[killdozzer]

I will admit to this; I would have never, in a million years, guessed the dome is ACTUALLY made of diamond (may it be industrial):

Diamond in limited size and shape has been made artificially since the 1950s and we realised some time ago that if a diamond dome could be made it would potentially raise the break-up frequency to around 70kHz. All we could do however was wait for diamond manufacturing techniques to catch-up with our aspirations. That happened recently in the guise of Chemical Vapour Deposition. CVD is a technologically sophisticated technique that enables pure diamond to be “grown” in complex shapes. The CVD principle is analogous to ice-crystals forming on a window. In CVD however the temperatures involved are equivalent to those on the surface of the Sun, and the role of water is taken by carbon. Intensive development with the World’s foremost industrial diamond producer finally bore fruit and we created a tweeter that literally approaches perfection. In two decades we have advanced the dome tweeter from something little more than a simple mechanism capable only of reproducing an approximation of the acoustic signal, to a sophisticated precision engineered device that is almost perfectly accurate.

Taken from the B&W web page.

 

[KenM10759]

Yup. I used to work at a place where one of the things they did was make diamond domes for missiles, for machining high silicon aluminum, wear applications, all kinds of things.

The huge hydrogen tank in the parking lot always gave me the jitters though.

 

[PENG]

The thing about 805 D3's not being better than LS50's?...that's just crazy.

Crazy, why? Is it about the $ difference? I thought people can have different preference of different sound characteristics without being considered crazy. And I happen to like both but that's just me..

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Crazy, why? Is it about the $ difference? I thought people can have different preference of different sound characteristics without being considered crazy. And I happen to like both but that's just me..

Nope, you can't have an opinion.

If it costs a lot more, it must sound a lot better.

For example, if the B&W 805D3 is $6K/pr and the KEF REF1 is $8K/pr, then obviously the KEF REF1 will sound $2K better than the 805D3! Duh!

Since the KEF Muon costs $225K and the B&W 800D3 costs only $30K, naturally the Muon will sound $195K better than the cheaper 800D3!

That's just the way it is. Some things will never change....

 

[PENG]

Nope, you can't have an opinion.

If it costs a lot more, it must sound a lot better.

For example, if the B&W 805D3 is $6K/pr and the KEF REF1 is $8K/pr, then obviously the KEF REF1 will sound $2K better than the 805D3! Duh!

Since the KEF Muon costs $225K and the B&W 800D3 costs only $30K, naturally the Muon will sound $195K better than the cheaper 800D3!

That's just the way it is. Some things will never change....

Time to re-visit some medical terms/examples that may apply to audio as well, I guess..

Placebo
https://www.webmd.com/pain-management/what-is-the-placebo-effect#1
"In one study involving asthma, people using a placebo inhaler did no better on breathing tests than sitting and doing nothing. But when researchers asked for people's perception of how they felt, the placebo inhaler was reported as being as effective as medicine in providing relief."

or, on the non medical side:
Expectation bias
http://www.aviationpros.com/article/10796523/expectation-bias
"A pilot calls the control tower and reports ready for departure on Runway 10. The controller clears the pilot for takeoff on Runway 17. The pilot reads back his clearance for takeoff on Runway 10 – and then stops on the runway when he spots an aircraft inbound in an opposite direction for his or her runway. In this case the pilot was captured by the expectation of what he or she was expecting to hear. "

So naysayers can pick their poison.. They do work!!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Time to re-visit some medical terms/examples that may apply to audio as well, I guess..

Placebo
https://www.webmd.com/pain-management/what-is-the-placebo-effect#1
"In one study involving asthma, people using a placebo inhaler did no better on breathing tests than sitting and doing nothing. But when researchers asked for people's perception of how they felt, the placebo inhaler was reported as being as effective as medicine in providing relief."

or, on the non medical side:
Expectation bias
http://www.aviationpros.com/article/10796523/expectation-bias
"A pilot calls the control tower and reports ready for departure on Runway 10. The controller clears the pilot for takeoff on Runway 17. The pilot reads back his clearance for takeoff on Runway 10 – and then stops on the runway when he spots an aircraft inbound in an opposite direction for his or her runway. In this case the pilot was captured by the expectation of what he or she was expecting to hear. "

So naysayers can pick their poison.. They do work!!

So true.

However, many audiophiles (especially golden ears) are somehow super-IMMUNE to placebo effect or expectation effect.

 

[KenM10759]

In the case of say, Reference 1 versus B&W 805D3, they're both good but I like the KEF better because of looks, and the company culture and support.

 

[Turk]

Just an update I tested the new R11 vs the 802d3 and the r11 could handle a lot more at higher volumes. We put the to the test through a few songs and the 802 d3 sounded like it was about to blow out and the R11 didn’t even flinch. Also sounded like the R 11 could dig deeper and had a wider sound stage

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Just an update I tested the new R11 vs the 802d3 and the r11 could handle a lot more at higher volumes. We put the to the test through a few songs and the 802 d3 sounded like it was about to blow out and the R11 didn’t even flinch. Also sounded like the R 11 could dig deeper and had a wider sound stage

When I owned the 802D2, I was scared those extremely brittle synthetic diamond tweeters would break too. Not worth the worry. Expensive, extremely brittle tweeter, big hump at 10kHz.

 

[KenM10759]

Just an update I tested the new R11 vs the 802d3 and the r11 could handle a lot more at higher volumes. We put the to the test through a few songs and the 802 d3 sounded like it was about to blow out and the R11 didn’t even flinch. Also sounded like the R 11 could dig deeper and had a wider sound stage

I've had a friend who is a KEF dealer relate pretty much the same thing about the new KEF R11. He said it was unreal how loud it could go without a detectable bit of distortion. He was a little more descriptive about the wider soundstage, saying the tweeter performance is vastly better than the R900, particularly off axis, yet the soundstage retains a lot of depth.

 

[TLS Guy]

Just an update I tested the new R11 vs the 802d3 and the r11 could handle a lot more at higher volumes. We put the to the test through a few songs and the 802 d3 sounded like it was about to blow out and the R11 didn’t even flinch. Also sounded like the R 11 could dig deeper and had a wider sound stage

The KEF looks like a nice unit. It really helps to double the number of VCs, but you will still be able to blow it up if you try.

The specs are very full and they even publish an impedance curve. It is four ohm with a brief dip to 3.2 ohms at 40 Hz and 150 Hz. Crossovers are well chosen at 400 Hz and 2.9 KHz, so the midrange is handling pretty much all of the speech discrimination band. The bass extension is conservative and appropriately chosen for 6" drivers.

To me that speaker seems much more intelligently designed than usual offerings, and for what it offers is good value for money at 5 K per pair.

The R11.

There is an unusually informative white paper from KEF for which they deserve great praise.

I would say that there is a high probability that is a very nice speaker.

 

[shadyJ]

There is an unusually informative white paper from KEF for which they deserve great praise.

That really is an unusually informative white paper. Few companies publish those sort of frequency responses or impedance responses.

 

[KenM10759]

I had read that when these were first announced. I should be able to audition then in person within the next week or two and am really looking forward to it.

They're not going to be something I'll buy, because I'm saving to go to the next step up (Reference or Blade 2) but anxious to hear how close they got to that level speaker at the price range they are. I do believe this series of speakers from KEF has the potential to win a lot of customers who wouldn't have considered them before. That they are getting more exposure @ Best Buy Magnolia is a good sign.

 

[mtrot]

I just returned from RMAF, and in two different rooms the 802D3 tweeters drove me out of the room. In one room, it was Miles Davis' muted trumpet that was the offender. There was just a grating "buzzy" sound to it. Sure, a muted trumpet is tough to get right, but this was just too much for me, and that is with my 64 year old ears and obviously some high frequency hearing loss. It didn't help that those hotel rooms seemed to have seven foot ceilings. Perhaps the diamond tweeter would work better in a big room with high ceilings.

 

[Art Vandelay]

I just returned from RMAF, and in two different rooms the 802D3 tweeters drove me out of the room. In one room, it was Miles Davis' muted trumpet that was the offender. There was just a grating "buzzy" sound to it. Sure, a muted trumpet is tough to get right, but this was just too much for me, and that is with my 64 year old ears and obviously some high frequency hearing loss. It didn't help that those hotel rooms seemed to have seven foot ceilings. Perhaps the diamond tweeter would work better in a big room with high ceilings.

Were you standing up or seated at the right height - with ears on tweeter axis?

Reason for asking is that 800 series all sound very wrong in the mids and treble at angles well above the designed listening axis.

 

[KenM10759]

Did you get to hear the new KEF R series at RMAF?

 

[mtrot]

Were you standing up or seated at the right height - with ears on tweeter axis?

Reason for asking is that 800 series all sound very wrong in the mids and treble at angles well above the designed listening axis.

I think I was standing at the back of the hotel room behind the last row of chairs they had set up, but sort of in between the speakers. But if they are that persnickety about listening position, I don't think they're for me.

 

[mtrot]

Did you get to hear the new KEF R series at RMAF?

No, I don't think they were at the show, but I'd like to.

 

[KenM10759]

I went to my dealer today and got about 40 minutes sitting in front of a pair of new R7. Without exaggerating, I was shocked. The new Uni-Q driver is clearly very close if not equal to that in my LS50's, and a marked improvement over my R500's. The level of detail was higher, highs extended yet extremely smooth. What was astounding to me was the improvement in bass response!

I had been given an iPad with Tidal HiFi. It controlled a Bluesound Node 2 into a Parasound Halo amp, through bi-amp A-Q Rocket 88 cables into the R7's. I queued up Track 13 on the Gregory Porter album "Take Me To The Alley". It's the second of two versions of the song "Holding On", and has bass tracks deep into the 20hz range.

The R7's put out bass that clearly rivals the KEF Kube 10b in my office LS50 setup. Deep and very clean. The R7's shook the floors!!

Very impressive!

 

[Art Vandelay]

I think I was standing at the back of the hotel room behind the last row of chairs they had set up, but sort of in between the speakers. But if they are that persnickety about listening position, I don't think they're for me.

Fairly typical problem with speakers that use first order filters with a vertical array.