The SEPARATES vs. AVR Thread

[PENG]

WTF!
This unit has me baffled!
At 4-5/8" tall, it seems it would be crowded as hell inside, but it is actually fairly open inside (considering it is an AV pre/pro).
But what is really blowing my mind is looking at the photos on Outlaw's website, it is fully enclosed - there are absolutely no apparent vents for airflow!
The only experience I have had with an AV pre-pro is the Integra DHC-80.2 which gets as hot as any of my AVR's. I had hoped it would run cooler (although running cool is not Onkyo's strong suite) since there are not amps generating heat, but I ended up with a couple of cooling fans on top of it!
How does the Outlaw not overheat? Having no vents seems insane! Past Outlaw gear always seemed to be well designed without any reputation of premature failure. I have to believe they know what they are doing!
Of course, we all know that a standard analog pre does not generate much heat; but, I thought the AV processing (especially the video processing) were major sources of heat! This unit may not have the full complement of codecs a Denon or Yamaha might, but it still has all of the major ones!

So,
How do they "get away" with that?
Are there other AV pre-pros with no ventilation?
Did they make a deal with the Devil?

This thing seems to be a very basic AVP, probably something that TLSGuy wouldn't mind. As such, there aren't many things in it that justify more vent holes than those on the two sides.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

This thing seems to be a very basic AVP, probably something that TLSGuy wouldn't mind.

No Atmos, DTSX, DSU.

However, those bent Caps won't fly with TLSGuy.

 

[KEW]

Vent holes are on the sides.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Outlaw+Model+976&safe=off&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjG26eez-rdAhVIMawKHfs8AUAQ_AUIDygC&biw=1134&bih=566#imgrc=6k-xIQAkQW4bJM:

Thanks!
I did not see that image.
Still, vent holes in the sides don't induce much ventilation. Usually a consumer amp (no fan) depends on hot air rising to provide convection of heat away from the electronics. It is still surprising that they didn't put vents in the center of the top so the hot air would rise up through those vents and pull air in from the side vents. As is, I don't see any reason that the air would actually flow very well into the center of the unit. Obviously, there can't be much heat generated as Peng indicated.

 

[PENG]

No Atmos, DTSX, DSU.

However, those bent Caps won't fly with TLSGuy.

He can easily straight them up after 3 years.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Thanks!
I did not see that image.
Still, vent holes in the sides don't induce much ventilation. Usually a consumer amp (no fan) depends on hot air rising to provide convection of heat away from the electronics. It is still surprising that they didn't put vents in the center of the top so the hot air would rise up through those vents and pull air in from the side vents. As is, I don't see any reason that the air would actually flow very well into the center of the unit. Obviously, there can't be much heat generated as Peng indicated.

Yeah, I definitely prefer abundance of vent holes on the top of the unit.

I like to put fans atop my amps and pre-pro to blow air UPWARD.

 

[KEW]

This thing seems to be a very basic AVP, probably something that TLSGuy wouldn't mind. As such, there aren't many things in it that justify more vent holes than those on the two sides.

What are the features in my Integra that add the heat?
Is Audyssey/XT 32 processing a major source?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

He can easily straight them up after 3 years.

Forget about straightening those caps.

Heck, knowing TLSGuy, he'll replace them all.

 

[PENG]

Thanks!
I did not see that image.
Still, vent holes in the sides don't induce much ventilation. Usually a consumer amp (no fan) depends on hot air rising to provide convection of heat away from the electronics. It is still surprising that they didn't put vents in the center of the top so the hot air would rise up through those vents and pull air in from the side vents. As is, I don't see any reason that the air would actually flow very well into the center of the unit. Obviously, there can't be much heat generated as Peng indicated.

The AV8801/02/05 have much more heating elements inside but only about the same or less vent holes, no fans visible from the outside but most likely presence. Are you sure the Outlaw does not have fan(s)?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The AV8801/02/05 have much more heating elements inside but only about the same or less vent holes, no fans visible from the outside but most likely presence. Are you sure the Outlaw does not have fan(s)?

The Marantz have a lot of vent holes on the top. So easy to place fans atop to pull air up.

 

[KEW]

The AV8801/02/05 have much more heating elements inside but only about the same or less vent holes, no fans visible from the outside but most likely presence. Are you sure the Outlaw does not have fan(s)?

No, I'm not at all sure, just going off of the image of the interior and the lack of fans at front or back (as you would see with pro/rack gear)! It is entirely possible there is a fan/intake pulling air into the bottom and forcing it out of the side vents. I have not seen an image of the bottom.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I don't know if anyone has asked or answered this question yet, but how do CHEAPER "separates" components (like the cheap ones from Emotiva and Outlaw) compare to the more expensive AVRs from Yamaha (RX-A3080, Denon X6500, and Sony 5000ES) ?

I assume that if people were offered for FREE either a cheaper $500-$700 "Separates" from EMO or Outlaw vs. a Yamaha RX-A3080, Denon X6500, or SONY 5000ES AVR, that 100% of people would choose the AVRs?

Is there ANYONE who would say that the cheaper EMO and Outlaw pre-pro "separates" actually sound better than these flagship AVRs?

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

Is there ANYONE who would say that the cheaper EMO and Outlaw pre-pro "separates" actually sound better than these flagship AVRs?

Sure. I would say there are people out there who would claim their sonic superiority (EMO and Outlaw) without blind testing simply because they are 'separates'.

 

[PENG]

Lots of people, including some very technical and knowledgeable people, believe that separates, or even budget brand name integrated amps use better components that give them sonic superiority over even flag ship AVRs. It does not have to be facts. As long as they believe, they will hear what they expected to hear. This applies to many things, not just audio and I know you know that already.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

As long as they believe, they will hear what they expected to hear.

Beautifully said. 5 Star Rating.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Lots of people, including some very technical and knowledgeable people, believe that separates, or even budget brand name integrated amps use better components that give them sonic superiority over even flag ship AVRs.

Sure. I would say there are people out there who would claim their sonic superiority (EMO and Outlaw) without blind testing simply because they are 'separates'.

Really? They believe that a $600 cheap pre-pro has better parts and sounds better than a $2200 AVR?

I would like to hear them say it.

And maybe give their rationale.

 

[PENG]

Really? They believe that a $600 cheap pre-pro has better parts and sounds better than a $2200 AVR?

I would like to hear them say it.

And maybe give their rationale.

No, I didn't saying anything about $600 cheap pre-pro, not at all. I was talking about budget priced brand name integrated amp.

Here's one article, in which the author did mention low-cost integrated, but "cheap" is a relative term, and the example he used, the Emo XSP-1, was listed for $1199.

Here it is if you are interested,
https://hometheaterhifi.com/technical/technical-reviews/options-by-supplier-and-price/

Even a low-cost stereo integrated amplifier will offer better performance in its analog input to its preamp output than an AVR in direct mode, since stereo products are made from SSI chips and, occasionally, relays. Value-priced stereo preamps with exceptional internal parts quality, including the electronic volume control chip, such as the Emotiva XSP-1 recently reviewed in Secrets (link shown below),will reveal any coloration of the LSI chip in the AVRs in direct mode.

I thought he might have over generalized a little, just to make his point. For example, the slightly cheaper $899 (street price) Yamaha A-S801 also used some of the LSI chips he talked about. You might call such integrated AVR based ..

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

I think that some people equate separate components with superior sound. That belief system formed through a conditioning process over time.

 

[everettT]

I think that some people equate separate components with superior sound. That belief system formed through a conditioning process over time.

Yup sound typically doesn’t come into play between avr, integrated, and separates except when measured which the majority of the time it’s inaudible

 

[Mikado463]

Is there ANYONE who would say that the cheaper EMO and Outlaw pre-pro "separates" actually sound better than these flagship AVRs?

possibly and perhaps if they have done the prescribed DBT testing it may have proven so. Regardless more variables at play here, namely ones speakers.

I wonder what the difference would be with top flight separates vs top flight AVR driving a pair of Magico Q7's ?

 

[everettT]

possibly and perhaps if they have done the prescribed DBT testing it may have proven so. Regardless more variables at play here, namely ones speakers.

I wonder what the difference would be with top flight separates vs top flight AVR driving a pair of Magico Q7's ?

Guess it would be spl and room dependent. Top flight AVRs don’t have the amp sections they did 20 years ago. Going back to the early 2000s Denon, Yamaha and pioneer had some extremely stout amps. Not sure modern avrs with 9+ channels can claim the same, not that they can’t be more than sufficient under the right circumstances.