Denon vs Marantz, facts, marketing hypes, best available deals, what else?

[M Code]

Is that the same reason why Denon don't market any of their audiophile integrated amps and media players such as the $5000-$8000, 50 WPC , 67 lbs 2 channel integrated amps outside of Japan? That is, no cooperation from AV "specialists"?

https://translate.google.ca/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=https://www.denon.jp/jp/product/hificomponents/amplifiers/pmasx&prev=search
https://www.ebay.com/itm/DENON-PMA-S10-VL-Integrated-Amplifier-Working-Properly-Free-Shipping-Audio-Japan-/253845245736?oid=263735978241

The Japan domestic hi-fi biz is quite unique, especially the high end... Some years back I spent a couple of weeks in Japans visiting their high end audio critics/writers/reviewers, they use limited spec measurements make their recommendations on "what they hear.." Note that in Japan audio components have fixed prices... Their distribution channels have stricter goverment/market controls, plus price maintenance. Big brands like Pansonic, Sony have their own retail stores. Certain crazy high-end components are only marketed there... as they won't sell in North America, Europe or Australia.. Such as $25K tone arm, $20K MC cartridge, low-powered integrated amplifiers. We have high end audio biz here but far more rational than Japan.

Just my $0.02...

 

[Darenwh]

So did you buy the Tone Arm?

 

[M Code]

So did you buy the Tone Arm?

Nope...
Couldn't afford it I'm on fixed income, besides my Bose wave radio has incredible sonic performance..

Just my $0.02...

 

[Quest4GoodEnough]

I signed up just to say thank you all for threads like this and the Separates vs AVR thread. Thank you for straying from the hype, sticking to the facts, and having respectful discussions. Great informative reading that benefits the consumer.

 

[KEW]

I signed up just to say thank you all for threads like this and the Separates vs AVR thread. Thank you for straying from the hype, sticking to the facts, and having respectful discussions. Great informative reading that benefits the consumer.

Welcome!
Glad to have you here!
I did not realize until recently how much censorship there is on the other AV forums.
We do our best to keep information factual and the moderators let us say what we experience/know/believe and let the discussion mature naturally.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

https://www.amazon.com/Denon-AVR-X7200WA-Channel-Receiver-Bluetooth/dp/B00XIG6LYC/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1536757143&sr=8-7&keywords=marantz+sr7012
https://www.amazon.com/Marantz-Audio-Receiver-Component-SR7012/dp/B072Z5C9Y7/ref=sr_1_2?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1536757315&sr=1-2&keywords=marantz+sr7012

This seems crazy, one can get a brand new ex Denon flagship AVR-X7200WA
now for $800 less than the ex Marantz pseudo flagship SR7012!!

Facts based on S&V bench tests:
4 ohms load two channel driven, at 0.1% THD
AVR-X7200WA: 234.7 W
SR7011 (7012 na): 203.5 W

8 ohms load 7 channel driven, at 0.1% THD
Denon: 113.7 W
Marantz: 75.1 W

Cross talk:
Denon: 93.91/94.53/108.2
Marantz: 71.72/71.55/107.82

Marketing hypes:
Denon: AL32 (Digital), Symmetrical monolithic amplifier design
Marantz: HDAM, copper shielding on the chassis (SR8012 and AV880X only, n/a to the SR701X's).

DAC chip:

Denon: AK4490, ex (AK4493 is out) flagship AKM, also used in the $4500 Marantz AV8805
Marantz: AK4458, 2nd from the top AKM AK4490/4493, also used in the $2999 Marantz SR8012.

In the US and Canada, Marantz has jacked up the prices in the last couple of years, while Denon has not...yet.. Example: the SR7010 was listed significantly less than the AVR-X6200H, but the SR7012 was listed at the same price as the AVR-X6400H.

In Europe and the far east, the price gap between the two brand's comparable models are much smaller.

I currently have more Marantz products than Denon's and I like them all, but would like to know the reasons why people, seemingly more so North Americans, would pay more for the same, and in some cases, less (e.g. SR6012/SR7012 vs AVR-X4400H)? Let's assume available multi-channel analog inputs are not the reason.

People pay more for the same because of perception and bias.

 

[orange260z]

I've had a number of Marantz receivers, and I've had a couple of Denon receivers. On paper, there is usually a Denon that matches the Marantz spec for spec but beats it on price. I can't say that one is "better" than the other, but I perceive a difference in the sound, and typically have preferred the Marantz. The couple of times I've bought the Denon because of the price I've been unhappy with the pairing with my Energy RC70 speakers. A different set of speakers could produce the opposite result, I don't know.

 

[Jon AA]

The Denon AVR-X7200WA is currently $1400
The Marantz SR-7012 is currently $2200

I think this was a matter of timing more than anything else. The Denon available at 47% of MSRP as replacements were in the pipeline vs. the Marantz at full MSRP.

A few months later I picked up a SR-7012, brand new from Amazon for $999. 45% of full price.

The ability to do that with D&M makes them an incredible value for people as long as you don't mind getting "last year's model." I wonder when we'll see the 8500 in the ~2-2.5K range?

 

[PENG]

A few months later I picked up a SR-7012, brand new from Amazon for $999. 45% of full price.

Interestingly a few weeks ago the SR 7013 dropped well below the $999 mark in Canada (CAD1.249), brand new from BB and Amazon. The deal was on for about a week iirc. The 8500 and 8805 were designed to be a little ahead of their time (with the promised hw/fw upgrades) so I don't you will seem them in the <$2/$3K range until 2021.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Like M Code says, these companies are taking a loss on the AVRs with all these discounts.

I forget --- why do they keep on making AVRs if they are talking a big loss?

 

[PENG]

Like M Code says, these companies are taking a loss on the AVRs with all these discounts.

I forget --- why do they keep on making AVRs if they are talking a big loss?

Great question, only M Code can answer. I guess it is not just a matter of poor inventory control, as they must have enough historic data to guide them.

 

[PENG]

If anyone is interested in comparing bench test results from two different benches, you can now do it on the AV8805.

Marantz AV8805 Processor Review - HomeTheaterHifi.com

The AV8805 is the latest generation flagship A/V processor and preamp from Marantz. Featuring support for up to 13.2 channels of immersive sound, the...

hometheaterhifi.com

Review and Measurements of Marantz AV8805 AV Processor

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Marantz AV8805 flagship Audio and Video Processor. It is on kind loan from a member and costs USD $4,499. If you are not familiar with this category of device, AV Processors are the heart of high-end home theaters. They provide all the input...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I did a quick comparison and found that the results were quite consistent with each other while not exactly the same. hometheaterhifi used to do theirs with the AP analyzer, like Audiosciencereview.com and Audioholics.com's but in this case they used something else.

Interestingly, the reviewer noted the following (that @Cos may be happy to read..):

"Harmonic distortion has not improved from the AV8802 to the AV8805 as was expected from the new chips. The change in the worst-case THD specification between the chips used in the AV8802 and AV8805 points to a 50% distortion reduction. We know the distortion is not from the AKM AK4490 DAC since the THD increased as we changed the output level from 2VRMS to 4VRMS with the volume control.

It is possible the HDAM discrete circuits past the new analog ICs are the dominant distortion source. The only way to find out is to open up the case and start probing internal boards which is not something we do here at Secrets. "

I always wonder about the effects of the HDAMs, that really is the only difference in the signal chain between comparable Denon and Marantz AVRs. So now it looks like I am not alone on this..