Denon vs Marantz, facts, marketing hypes, best available deals, what else?

[PENG]

https://www.amazon.com/Denon-AVR-X7200WA-Channel-Receiver-Bluetooth/dp/B00XIG6LYC/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1536757143&sr=8-7&keywords=marantz+sr7012
https://www.amazon.com/Marantz-Audio-Receiver-Component-SR7012/dp/B072Z5C9Y7/ref=sr_1_2?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1536757315&sr=1-2&keywords=marantz+sr7012

This seems crazy, one can get a brand new ex Denon flagship AVR-X7200WA
now for $800 less than the ex Marantz pseudo flagship SR7012!!

Facts based on S&V bench tests:
4 ohms load two channel driven, at 0.1% THD
AVR-X7200WA: 234.7 W
SR7011 (7012 na): 203.5 W

8 ohms load 7 channel driven, at 0.1% THD
Denon: 113.7 W
Marantz: 75.1 W

Cross talk:
Denon: 93.91/94.53/108.2
Marantz: 71.72/71.55/107.82

Marketing hypes:
Denon: AL32 (Digital), Symmetrical monolithic amplifier design
Marantz: HDAM, copper shielding on the chassis (SR8012 and AV880X only, n/a to the SR701X's).

DAC chip:

Denon: AK4490, ex (AK4493 is out) flagship AKM, also used in the $4500 Marantz AV8805
Marantz: AK4458, 2nd from the top AKM AK4490/4493, also used in the $2999 Marantz SR8012.

In the US and Canada, Marantz has jacked up the prices in the last couple of years, while Denon has not...yet.. Example: the SR7010 was listed significantly less than the AVR-X6200H, but the SR7012 was listed at the same price as the AVR-X6400H.

In Europe and the far east, the price gap between the two brand's comparable models are much smaller.

I currently have more Marantz products than Denon's and I like them all, but would like to know the reasons why people, seemingly more so North Americans, would pay more for the same, and in some cases, less (e.g. SR6012/SR7012 vs AVR-X4400H)? Let's assume available multi-channel analog inputs are not the reason.

 

[Drunkpenguin]

We once had a house recarpeted and asked for the best carpet they sell so it would last. They owner of the company told us "No, you want the 2nd best carpet I sell". I asked why? He said some people just have to much money and that carpet is for them, but there is no real difference between the 2.

 

[KEW]

I just wanted to record the pricing since it may change any moment with Amazon and this thread will be around for a while:

The Denon AVR-X7200WA is currently $1400
The Marantz SR-7012 is currently $2200

I think HDAM is Marantz code for "HotDamn!" which is what Marantz said when they realized they could market a pseudo-feature as if it was a significant improvement and increase their profit margins by charging more for less!

Marantz has done a good job of marketing their AVR as being "special". Visually, the port aesthetic clearly sets them apart from "generic" AVR's. In the US (and presumably Canada) Marantz has a substantial legacy from the 60's(?) and 70's as a reliable and high quality manufacturer of electronics. They cost more than other alternatives (such as Fisher),but the quality was high and they were gorgeous! They have also avoided the lower-end of the market - leaving it to Denon to cover that market for D&M. In a way, it is surprising that Denon still has products like teh 7200 which is (or at least should be) under-cutting their own market. They are not yet fully following the Scion/Toyota/Lexus model of establishing separate markets.
They have chosen to market themselves as the "audiophile's AVR" except they don't even designate themselves as AVR's, they are SR's (Surround Receivers).
If you are prone to buy into marketing hype, you would want Marantz's refinements over Denon's (or Yamaha or Onkyo, et al) plain vanilla AVR's!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

We once had a house recarpeted and asked for the best carpet they sell so it would last. They owner of the company told us "No, you want the 2nd best carpet I sell". I asked why? He said some people just have to much money and that carpet is for them, but there is no real difference between the 2.

Some people have too much money is right. And they don't mind paying a lot more for a little better. But the salient thing is that they feel better.

A lot of times in life, it's not just about performance or quality. It's about that intangible inexplicable FEELING.

If it makes you happy, it can't be that bad - if you're damn rich.

 

[lovinthehd]

Kurt said what I was going to essentially. So many times I've read comments on various fora/groups that assumes Marantz is simply superior despite much evidence that it's not. Denon was pretty "audiophile" in their own right but not as well known. I liked the carpet story, too. Having worked with businesses that catered to the high end in other fields, sounds very familiar.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Aside from the Denon AVP-A1HD and very few other components, Denon usually doesn't sell Pre-pros, amps, integrated amps and "separates" like Marantz (Pre-pro, Preamp, Integrated amp, Amp).

People may associate Marantz as being a "separates" company and associate Denon as being an "AVR" company.

I think a lot of people associate "separates" as being better than AVR.

 

[lovinthehd]

Aside from the Denon AVP-A1HD and very few other components, Denon usually doesn't sell Pre-pros, amps, integrated amps and "separates" like Marantz (Pre-pro, Preamp, Integrated amp, Amp).

People may associate Marantz as being a "separates" company and associate Denon as being an "AVR" company.

I think a lot of people associate "separates" as being better than AVR.

There's probably a time line thing in regards to the separates and integrated amps....pretty sure they were part of Denon's lineup at one point....just not under the latest corporate owners and their marketing direction?

 

[Drunkpenguin]

I just replaced my Marantz 7002. Well, its in the living room now so I still have it. I don't recall how I ended up with it as I had it for a long time, but I was under the impression that it was one of the best on the market and always felt good about owning it. AVS preached it alot back then so thats probably how I got it. When it came time to upgrade I didn't wanna spend that much money again so started looking at alternatives. Found out Denon was owned by the same company but cheaper so really started to look at and review their line up. Glad I did, the Denon is seriously rocking my theater now!

It's funny, my entire audio system is made up of products that my friends and family have never even heard of. Denon, Marantz, Emotiva, PSA, SVS.

Speaking of the power of marketting. The first time my mother came to my house to watch a movie in my theater she said "Wow, this sounds amazing. Is this a bose system?" I bout had a heart attack.

 

[lovinthehd]

I just replaced my Marantz 7002. Well, its in the living room now so I still have it. I don't recall how I ended up with it as I had it for a long time, but I was under the impression that it was one of the best on the market and always felt good about owning it. AVS preached it alot back then so thats probably how I got it. When it came time to upgrade I didn't wanna spend that much money again so started looking at alternatives. Found out Denon was owned by the same company but cheaper so really started to look at and review their line up. Glad I did, the Denon is seriously rocking my theater now!

It's funny, my entire audio system is made up of products that my friends and family have never even heard of. Denon, Marantz, Emotiva, PSA, SVS.

Speaking of the power of marketting. The first time my mother came to my house to watch a movie in my theater she said "Wow, this sounds amazing. Is this a bose system?" I bout had a heart attack.

LOL jdsmoothie at avsforum always had a coy answer when I pressed on the supposed superiority of the Marantz....

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

There's probably a time line thing in regards to the separates and integrated amps....pretty sure they were part of Denon's lineup at one point....just not under the latest corporate owners and their marketing direction?

Yeah, that's the thing - Denon may sell separates once in a while. Marantz sells separates every year.

 

[Drunkpenguin]

That dudes the reason I am no longer on AVS. He was annoying so I told him to delete me account one day.

 

[lovinthehd]

Yeah, that's the thing - Denon may sell separates once in a while. Marantz sells separates every year.

These days....it may have started before being spun off in 2001, tho. Possibly also could have been different in Japan.

 

[lovinthehd]

That dudes the reason I am no longer on AVS. He was annoying so I told him to delete me account one day.

Knowledgeable guy but also IIRC a salesman for their av products business. Always wondered how big a fish he was there. How did he annoy you? I usually found him fairly straight forward....was it a Marantz/Denon thing?

 

[Drunkpenguin]

AVS deletes comments that bad mouth a company and I just had enough. It started with a thread about Seymour screens. I had tested their samples and found them maybe 5% better than Silver ticket for another 1500 bucks. Then a guy came in and posted images of his Seymour screen that started bowing badly after a month of use. I made some anti Seymour comments that were removed and given me a couple days of banishment. I had been banned many times over the years so it was nothing new. Then I was in the Denon thread complaining that Denons website showed the x3400 as being capable of processing 11 channels which it could not. I was complaining that I felt Denon had lied to me and the one email I got back from them basically just said "it was a mistake by the web programmer, too bad deal with it. So I complained more and more on AVS about it. McSmoothy (ironic name for someone who is not smooth btw) deleted some comments and told me I needed to only talk about technical issues. So I got fed up with him and told him I didnt like his attitude or AVS's. I told him that deleting unhappy customers only benefits the companies that pay his wages and does not help other users. Users like to know about how a company treats customers before they commit. I ended it with telling him I was done and please delete my account. Which must have given him an orgasm because he wasted zero time doing that lol.

The ironic thing is, Denon eventually agreed to upgrade me to the x4400 for free which was pretty awesome. AVS will never get to know that Denon did the right thing for me and turned me into a happy life long customer. But... Audioholics gets to know it and I feel pretty good about that because this place is pretty awesome. It's very refreshing to have a bit of free speech in a forum. Thats a rarity these days, so high five to everyone involved with this place!

 

[Zildjianmeister]

I thought this is relevant to this thread. I posted this a ways back:
"I was able to take a listen to the Marantz sr7012, Denon x4400H, and the Denon X6400H. I could not hear a difference in the music I demoed with different speakers and direct/pure direct. The salesperson kept saying "Hear the musicality and airiness of the Marantz? That's the Hdam's" "

So that's marketing at it's finest. To my ears, I couldn't tell a difference. Although I could tell there was a difference in music "when we switched to better speakers" using those receiver models. Which ended up sounding the same for all 3.

Z

 

[PENG]

I thought this is relevant to this thread. I posted this a ways back:
"I was able to take a listen to the Marantz sr7012, Denon x4400H, and the Denon X6400H. I could not hear a difference in the music I demoed with different speakers and direct/pure direct. The salesperson kept saying "Hear the musicality and airiness of the Marantz? That's the Hdam's" "

So that's marketing at it's finest. To my ears, I couldn't tell a difference. Although I could tell there was a difference in music "when we switched to better speakers" using those receiver models. Which ended up sounding the same for all 3.

They all have flat line 20-20000 Hz, THD+N well below 0.05% when not pushed near their rated output limits. SNR and XT are also in the inaudible range. Yet their marketing people seems to want potential customers to choose Marantz for the warm and acoustical sound, or Denon for the clear and crisp sound. Their is nothing in their specs, available bench test results that can explain and/or validate the existence of the claimed difference .

I have listened hard, and plotted many frequency/phase response, impulse, waterfalls etc., and found no evidence of the claimed sound characteristics, yet I can hear a difference if I make even a slight adjustment using manual EQ, or the channel levels. I also have proof (in logical sense only) that Marantz actually knows (or appears to know) the HDAM effects on SQ is not audible, or at best, insignificant.

 

[PENG]

Yeah, that's the thing - Denon may sell separates once in a while. Marantz sells separates every year.

I think you are right, Denon now markets their high end integrated and media players in Japan only. They do advertise some mid range stuff on the UK site as well. That's probably the main reason why those integrated amps are much more expensive than Marantz's, that is, economy of scale is on the Marantz side.

 

[KEW]

They all have flat line 20-20000 Hz, THD+N well below 0.05% when not pushed near their rated output limits. SNR and XT are also in the inaudible range. Yet their marketing people seems to want potential customers to choose Marantz for the warm and acoustical sound, or Denon for the clear and crisp sound. Their is nothing in their specs, available bench test results that can explain and/or validate the existence of the claimed difference.

You are not looking in the right place! You are not going to find the difference in the specs or any bench test results.
If you want to find an explanation of the existence of the claimed difference, you need only look at the profit margins! That quite clearly explains the existence of the claimed difference (which is not to be confused with an actual difference... of consequence)!

 

[M Code]

Today Marantz and Denon use common engineering, software and key components for all price ranges of AVRs.. The higher end products are built in Japan, the mid to lower are built in Vietnam by a subcontractor.
Over the last several years both brands have hit hard times.. Resulting in significant financial losses, there are multiple reasons for the weak financial performance but the majority of trouble started about 6 years ago when Denon attempted to build market share by expanding distribution. For many years Denon enjoyed an incredible market position for high-end, quality AVRs, they had many technical 1sts. But as their distribution expanded Denon was originally positioned as a step-to profit brand for the AV specialists, unfortunately this expansion caused troubles for the AV specialists as the more aggressive price points driven by the expanded internet sellers destroyed the brand/profit positioning held by the AV specialist. Next the AV specialists largely dropped Denon as a brand, putting significant financial burden on Denon, resulting in having Denon only capable of selling the lower margin price/profit AVRs through the internet sellers. And as the AVRs got more complex, the internet sellers had little technical support offering only price.

Over the last few years Denon has worked hard to add discipline/control to their distribution channels and have had reasonable sucess with their CI series and by adding HEOS though they are paying a hefty royalty to Sonos.. But with the shrinking of the AV specialist channels this left little room for Marantz sales, so D&M decided Marantz needed to move their products higher up the market more toward the independents..

Fast forward to now..
Early last year, Bain Capital sold D&M to Boston-based Charlesbank Capital Partners. CCP is the owner of DEI Holdings, a division of which is Sound United LLC, parent company of Polk Audio, Definitive Technology, and Polk BOOM. Also DEI Holdings is in car security systems with brands like Direct & Viper. Though still early, D&M under the direction of Sound United has assembled & hired some talented, strategic capable product and marketing personnel, with many from Harman International. @ CEDIA 2018 they had a great, crowded booth with multiple new innovative products and appear to be back on track.. I hope they do well, the market needs them..

Just my $0.02...

 

[PENG]

Today Marantz and Denon use common engineering, software and key components for all price ranges of AVRs.. The higher end products are built in Japan, the mid to lower are built in Vietnam by a subcontractor.
Over the last several years both brands have hit hard times.. Resulting in significant financial losses, there are multiple reasons for the weak financial performance but the majority of trouble started about 6 years ago when Denon attempted to build market share by expanding distribution. For many years Denon enjoyed an incredible market position for high-end, quality AVRs, they had many technical 1sts. But as their distribution expanded Denon was originally positioned as a step-to profit brand for the AV specialists, unfortunately this expansion caused troubles for the AV specialists as the more aggressive price points driven by the expanded internet sellers destroyed the brand/profit positioning held by the AV specialist. Next the AV specialists largely dropped Denon as a brand, putting significant financial burden on Denon, resulting in having Denon only capable of selling the lower margin price/profit AVRs through the internet sellers. And as the AVRs got more complex, the internet sellers had little technical support offering only price.

Over the last few years Denon has worked hard to add discipline/control to their distribution channels and have had reasonable sucess with their CI series and by adding HEOS though they are paying a hefty royalty to Sonos.. But with the shrinking of the AV specialist channels this left little room for Marantz sales, so D&M decided Marantz needed to move their products higher up the market more toward the independents..

Fast forward to now..
Early last year, Bain Capital sold D&M to Boston-based Charlesbank Capital Partners. CCP is the owner of DEI Holdings, a division of which is Sound United LLC, parent company of Polk Audio, Definitive Technology, and Polk BOOM. Also DEI Holdings is in car security systems with brands like Direct & Viper. Though still early, D&M under the direction of Sound United has assembled & hired some talented, strategic capable product and marketing personnel, with many from Harman International. @ CEDIA 2018 they had a great, crowded booth with multiple new innovative products and appear to be back on track.. I hope they do well, the market needs them..

Just my $0.02...

Is that the same reason why Denon don't market any of their audiophile integrated amps and media players such as the $5000-$8000, 50 WPC , 67 lbs 2 channel integrated amps outside of Japan? That is, no cooperation from AV "specialists"?

https://translate.google.ca/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=https://www.denon.jp/jp/product/hificomponents/amplifiers/pmasx&prev=search
https://www.ebay.com/itm/DENON-PMA-S10-VL-Integrated-Amplifier-Working-Properly-Free-Shipping-Audio-Japan-/253845245736?oid=263735978241