The SEPARATES vs. AVR Thread

[AcuDefTechGuy]

How about this:

An AVR (such as Denon X4400H) with preouts (AVR used as preamp)
An external multi-channel amp of your choice.

There's your separates.

Boring. Zzzzzzzzzzzzz.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

Boring. Zzzzzzzzzzzzz.

But, but, the money you'll save.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

But, but, the money you'll save.

True.

Maybe it depends on how exciting your life is.

I mean if you already have an adventurous life, then you don’t need separates to help make things more fun.

But if you have a boring life like mine, then maybe separates help a little (All the help I can get).

 

[TechHDS]

True.

Maybe it depends on how exciting your life is.

I mean if you already have an adventurous life, then you don’t need separates to help make things more fun.

But if you have a boring life like mine, then maybe separates help a little (All the help I can get).

ADTG, may I suggest ‍rent two and call me in the morning.

Mike

 

[Drunkpenguin]

I think u mean rent 2 and call me right now!

 

[panteragstk]

There is knowledge and price. Board level replacement becomes out of the question when parts do not exist.
There are chips that are out of production so now you have to find scrap parts.

Most of us have had to make the decision about cost-effectiveness of repair. I am not spending over $1000 on repairing my wife's almost 20 year old Lexus.

- Rich

Exactly. Can't replace the part if no replacement part exists. With the unit being that complicated and 8 years old I agree with the BB manager's choice to not send it back and waste customer time. Even though it's a high end unit that should have lasted much longer, it just doesn't make sense at that point.

 

[KEW]

Exactly. Can't replace the part if no replacement part exists. With the unit being that complicated and 8 years old I agree with the BB manager's choice to not send it back and waste customer time. Even though it's a high end unit that should have lasted much longer, it just doesn't make sense at that point.

I would like to see a company like Denon support their flagship products for at least 10 years!
Denon decides what inventory to maintain and how long to support repairs. Of course, this is speculative...Denon may estimate a 10 year failure rate of 0.6% for the board that ADTG needed. However, if the actual failure rate turned out to be 3%, they would go through those boards much quicker than anticipated.
I have no idea of what Denon's objective for duration of repair support is, but hope they shoot for more than 8 years!

 

[M Code]

The solution is complex and costly... Depends upon the age of the product, in later years more & more surface mount parts were used, which are difficult to troubleshoot and replace. Besides obsolete ICs and outdated technology, plus today's bench labor rates are expensive... However since we travel to the Orient frequently, we have found that for older audio components and cars, in many cases the parts are available only in Japan but not the USA. For example, I recently obtained a part for a Denon turntable that was >30 years old. Also for 1 of my cars, a 30 year old Mitsubishi Turbo sports coupe the small pilot lites in the AC temperature control had burnt out and no longer available in the USA. But available in Japan so I brought back a box of 10, that should last me another 30 years...
I needed an FL display for an older Marantz component not available in the USA but available in Japan. But in my case, my experiences are unique having a network of contacts in the CE biz @ the corporate level. But today in most instances when an older product goes bad it ends up in the recycle pile unless it is a classic tube and/or legacy branded component..

Another situation that strikes me funny is the value of some of the older, vintage Pioneer, Denon, Kenwood, Marantz products which at the time they were sold were reasonably priced, but now 25 years later they are selling for 4-5X their original retail price...
I guess because many users think they sound better than the present stuff, I won't touch that one in the thread..

Just my $0.02...

 

[panteragstk]

I would like to see a company like Denon support their flagship products for at least 10 years!
Denon decides what inventory to maintain and how long to support repairs. Of course, this is speculative...Denon may estimate a 10 year failure rate of 0.6% for the board that ADTG needed. However, if the actual failure rate turned out to be 3%, they would go through those boards much quicker than anticipated.
I have no idea of what Denon's objective for duration of repair support is, but hope they shoot for more than 8 years!

What I'm wondering is if Denon used this flagship as a testing ground as opposed to a solid, proven flagship. Customers are unwilling beta testers all the time with products that are released as finished. Maybe they even thought that people that bought the unit would just buy something else if it failed.

Or, its as simple as the techs never see these units and don't have a damn clue how to fix them. willing to bet that's it.

 

[Bookmark]

It is likely a bit of both. The well rehearsed tech from the lower and previous models plus some new features and functions looking ahead a couple years.

I know the 5100, from a couple years ago when I bought it, had a lot in common with the then 3050/60, not entirely sure which. But the extra bits in the 5100 then progressed to the subsequent Aventage model of the next year or two. In addition features which could come back the other way did too. So we got 15Hz sub option, Dolby Vision, HLG and a couple new surround effects modes.

The 5100 and now the 5200 did/do have a solid base in 5000 to work from. The 5000 was probably the adventurous one since this was the 1st processor Yamaha had done for quite some time.

Finally got round to checking my Xbox one for Atmos. Oh dear, we are just truly shortchanged in the UK. Netfilix choices are few and far between with only a couple of films and a few series. Bright was one, I had watched it previously, but the Atmos seems to be working. Amazon are even worse 1 entry on Prime a short called Escape, it is nice but only 1 . The other 3 are purchases. ...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

After I opened up my AVP-A1 and took everything apart, I realized it was like looking for a needle in a haystack for the techs.

I’m sure they looked the main circuit boards that are visible. But there are a layers lot of boards and wires that are underneath and hidden.

They could have taken everything apart and replaced everything if all parts were available. But the cost would be significant.

I think the $7500 AVP-A1 was only meant for rich people that didn’t care if they had to replace it after 3 years when the warranty was over.

I thought it was meant for people who wanted to keep it for 20 years, but I was wrong.

Lesson learned.

 

[PENG]

What I'm wondering is if Denon used this flagship as a testing ground as opposed to a solid, proven flagship. Customers are unwilling beta testers all the time with products that are released as finished. Maybe they even thought that people that bought the unit would just buy something else if it failed.

Or, its as simple as the techs never see these units and don't have a damn clue how to fix them. willing to bet that's it.

I do understand the pain from losing such a unit after a short 8 years. On the other hand, I also think he should consider the fact that electronics do fail, even the very simple devices and that there are many AVP users still enjoying their fully differential (I don't believe they worth the money) AVP, some also had their units repaired successfully by Denon. Regarding the layers of boards, imagine if you double everything (yes, exaggerating just a little to make my point..) in the CX-A5100, you may end up with similar situation!!

ADTG posted many pictures of the innards of several mid to high end AVPs, and I agree they look much simpler and cleaner than the Denon AVP, but not exactly apple to apple comparison either as they are not fully differential and some do not have many of the features that the AVP has aside from the differential thing. I dare say 50 to 75% of the poorer layout and more jam-packed look of the AVP were due to the misguided fully differential scheme, the other 25 to 50%, are probably just poor design, not giving their design group the benefit of doubts.

In my opinion, an AVP that has all the latest gadgets and 11 or more channels are not going to do better than a comparable AVR (feature wise) in a significant way. Even the lower end ones typically come with additional circuitry/part for the balanced I/Os, legacy connectors, sound enhancement circuitry (e.g. more DAC chips, more use of discrete components),extra shielding etc. As example, my AV8801 has 13 individual silly HDAM boards, the 8802A and 8805 will be worse/worst with the upgraded HDAMs.. An AVR won't have those things that don't contribute to audible improvements for most people anyway, but do come with a larger PS and power amp boards/heatsinks. The amp sections in an AVR are quite simple, proven design/builds, and if fitted with fans the amp section as a whole should be small enough to squeeze in the space emptied by the audiophile/marketing driven components in those AVPs. The overall MTBF/MTTF rates are going to be similar than different for both. AVP+Amp = more parts counts = higher failure rate, AVR = more parts counts in one single chassis=more heat to manage. So, pick your poison, and I have tried both!!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think many of us have voiced our concerns:

1. Many electronics these days are not well designed and are made to be replaced sooner than later.
2. Electronics these days cram way too much "features" that do NOT improve sound quality. This leads to unnecessary component parts which leads to higher failure rates than electronics made long ago.

But It's only up to us to learn from the mistakes and make different decisions in the future.

1. Much higher-price components don't sound any better- they may even fail much sooner depending on how much crap is horseshoed inside the little chassis.

2. For those who want to own separates, perhaps Pre-pros in the $1500 - $2000 range is good.

3. For those who want to own AVRs, perhaps something in the $800 - $1500 range is good.

 

[PENG]

I think many of us have voiced our concerns:

1. Many electronics these days are not well designed and are made to be replaced sooner than later.
2. Electronics these days cram way too much "features" that do NOT improve sound quality. This leads to unnecessary component parts which leads to higher failure rates than electronics made long ago.

But It's only up to us to learn from the mistakes and make different decisions in the future.

1. Much higher-price components don't sound any better- they may even fail much sooner depending on how much crap is horseshoed inside the little chassis.

2. For those who want to own separates, perhaps Pre-pros in the $1500 - $2000 range is good.

3. For those who want to own AVRs, perhaps something in the $800 - $1500 range is good.

4. In most cases, last year models when on clearance sale are the best deals, except when the newly launched models offer one or more significant new features such as from lossy to lossless audios, HDMI 1.4 to 2.0, HDCP2.2..

 

[KEW]

What I'm wondering is if Denon used this flagship as a testing ground ...

I dare say 50 to 75% of the poorer layout and more jam-packed look of the AVP were due to the misguided fully differential scheme...

IIRC, Denon has discontinued efforts to include fully differential circuitry in their later AVR/pre-pro units.

ADTG, sucks for you!
However, we do thank you for your noble sacrifice!

Too soon?

I think the $7500 AVP-A1 was only meant for rich people that didn’t care if they had to replace it after 3 years when the warranty was over.

Unfortunately, I think that is the truth of it.
I suspect most people who would buy a $7500 AVP would have upgraded or been happy for the "opportunity" to replace the failed unit by the 8 year mark.
I mean if you were really into having a "showcase HT", there have been plenty of changes over 8 years and the AVP-A1 was starting to get pretty obsolete in that context.

 

[PENG]

IIRC, Denon has discontinued efforts to include fully differential circuitry in their later AVR/pre-pro units.

That is true, but I am not aware of any AVR that include "fully" differential circuitry. By "fully", I mean every single stage from prepro input to power map output. Gene called it "full balanced transmission". Just take a look of the block diagrams Gene posted before, you can see even the DACs are setup to preserve the "fully" differential status, there are 4 PCM1796 per channel, that's 48 (4 per chip, I assume) in total, ouch!! Again, I suppose there exist AVR(s) that came with XLR connectors, but "differential", I doubt it.

https://www.audioholics.com/av-preamp-processor-reviews/denon-avp-a1hdci/design-overview

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

Economies of Scale.

Denon, Marantz, Onkyo, Pioneer, Sony, Yamaha, NAD.

 

[snakeeyes]

What new features would be worth upgrading that are coming in the next 2 to 3 years? Since I have 3 rooms the AVRs get a trickle down upgrade effect as the main room gets an upgrade. Same with TVs.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

What new features would be worth upgrading that are coming in the next 2 to 3 years? Since I have 3 rooms the AVRs get a trickle down upgrade effect as the main room gets an upgrade. Same with TVs.

I wouldn't say it's worth it.

But HDMI 2.1, 8K resolution, and IMAX Enhanced certification are 3 I can think of.

https://www.cnet.com/news/the-new-imax-enhanced-certification-hopes-to-improve-performance-of-your-home-theater/

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Economies of Scale.

Denon, Marantz, Onkyo, Pioneer, Sony, Yamaha, NAD.

Has it gotten to the point where we associate economies of scale to quicker production, increased production, less cost, and less lifespan?

Is the term "separates" too loosely spoken? Should we reserve "separates" only to the niche market, instead of the mass market?

So true "separates" would be like the 2CH stereo Preamps and built-from-scratch Pre-pros like Theta, DataSAT, ATI, Bryston, and the upcoming Emotiva RMC-1 ?

Are the Pre-pros like those from Marantz, Yamaha, NAD, and Anthem all built from AVR, instead of from scratch?

So we have 2 types of Pre-pros:
1. Built-from-scratch (Theta, DataSAT, Bryston) - maybe we should call these Pre-Pro.

2. Built-from-AVR (Denon AVP-A1HDCI, Marantz, etc.) - maybe we should call these AVP (just like the AVR minus the amps).

And the built-from-AVR Pre-pros are only a little better than the AVR themselves because these Pre-pros are really just like the AVR in EVERY way, except the amp section has been removed?