The SEPARATES vs. AVR Thread

[Mikado463]

Do you watch movies in 2CH?

rarely watch movies, the majority of stuff today is garbage IMO. When I do it's on a 5.1 set up in my family room.

My man cave(14'6" x 24' x 8') is my 2 channel listening room.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

rarely watch movies, the majority of stuff today is garbage IMO. When I do it's on a 5.1 set up in my family room.

My man cave(14'6" x 24' x 8') is my 2 channel listening room.

If I rarely watch movies and TV shows, I would not have any need for Pre-pro or AVR.

It would be simple analog Preamp + Amp.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Since this is the Separates vs AVR thread, I thought I'd bring this discussion here from another thread:

It is really unfair to compare a Processor or Stereo/monoblock amp to a high count, multi channel AVRs.


The Bryston, Theta, Datasat, ATI engineers don't have to built it for 1 or 2 grand retail, don't have to shift 10s of thousands of units just to cover the development cost and still make a profit. If they did, their reliability would tank and the vast open interiors would be whole lot busier. Even the ATI/Monolith/Emotive 7 channel amp are a heck lot more cramped and dense. The Japanese engineers are doing a pretty good job packing it in and still keeping it running reliably.

Try fitting all the Bryson processor gubbins inside these boxes all wired up.

So in order for engineers to built a Pre-pro that looks empty inside with a lot less parts, the cost would have to be a lot higher?

It's not like for like. One is building for a cost/sale price/performance and the other is trying to design the best product it can. One sell by volume and the other sells as a premium product.


ATI are making multi channel amps at a range of prices, for numerous brands. Pretty sure they can hit a particular price point if they had to. If they have to then squeeze in the Processor components inside the same size box then compromises will have to be made. You can't just fill the space up with large heat sinks.

When ATI start putting out 11 or 13 channels amp into the volume of Yamaha MX 5200 then we can discuss if they can still do that for 2.5K and whether it is an over packed design

I can see the point of the niche vs mass market.


I guess the mass market doesn’t care for purely HDMI and XLR connectors?

The mass market cares mainly for a million useless DSP and Bloatware features (Virtual speakers, Internet Radio Services, etc.) ? Probably. I can see that.

I was mainly comparing the $7,500 AVP-A1HDCI and $4,000 Marantz flagship Pre-Pros vs the Bryston, ATI, DataSAT.

But I guess the AVP-A1 and Marantz are still “mass market” compared to the Bryston, ATI.

Denon/Marantz basically took their mass market AVR and changed a few things to make them mass market Pre-Pro.

That does make sense.

Whereas the Bryston and ATI are built as Pre-Pro from the ground up, not from AVR.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

1. I would disagree with you this time. There are a lot of similarities between the Marantz prepro and their new flagship AVR, but not Denon. If you look at Denon's AVP, it is very unique....

2. Just because you have known of two failures, you really can't assume it is all bad, that all of the sold units would fail within 8 years...

3. I really begin to wonder what is the point of going the fully differential scheme such as the Denon AVP's? That scheme pretty much double up most of the components from end to end....So there is a waste of time and material to build something to eliminate noise and harmonic distortions that human cannot detect....

4. If you could go back in time, you should have put that thing in a custom AC cabinet, with redundancy/failed safe temperature control auto shutdown, and it would have lasted another 10 years for you.

1. Yeah, the Denon AVP-A1HD Pre-pro was different because it was fully balanced and all that. But I don't think it was designed from the ground up. It seemed they took the Denon AVR-5308 (same exact chassis) and changed things up - fully balanced, XLR, etc.

If they did designed the AVP-A1HD from the ground up, then I am 100% disappointed in their engineers. This thing looks like a total mess with circuit boards under circuit boards hidden under more boards.

I can understand if they were forced to take the AVR-5308 and changed it. But to start from the ground up and end up with that kind of mess is unacceptable to me.

This is a total mess:

2. I experienced two AVP-A1 failures personally. One was bought brand new and one was bought refurbished. Grassy experience one AVP-A1 failure.

3. Since I think the Yamaha CX-A5100 and others sound at LEAST as good as the Denon AVP-A1, I think the fully balance design was a 100% waste.

4. I have used 3 fans atop the AVP-A1 for a long time from almost the beginning and the rooms were always A/C cooled every time I used the AVP-A1. It has always been well ventilated.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

1. BC the japanese stuff typically does a lot more. American processors are often lacking in features...

2. ...and sometimes in performance. The AVP as a preamp/processor produced some of the best test bench results I've ever measured. If only they would have refreshed that unit with immersive surround, HDMI 2.0, and a manual PEQ, I would have taken it to my grave.

I agree that the Bryston, Theta, ATI, DataSAT lacked "features". But how many of those "features" are great?

Sure, they lack 9CH Stereo mode and a million other DSP modes and Virtual Speakers. They may not have all the Internet Radio Services. And they lack 20 legacy inputs for VCR, Tape Deck,

But they do have:
1. 7 HDMI In/ 2 HDMI Out
2. 16 XLR Channels for Atmos and DTSX
3. Dirac Live Room Correction
4. Bass Management

With this kind of simple PC-like design:

2. I would think that Pre-pros like the Theta, Bryston, ATI/DataSAT will sound at LEAST as good as the Denon AVP-A1.

 

[PENG]

1. Yeah, the Denon AVP-A1HD Pre-pro was different because it was fully balanced and all that. But I don't think it was designed from the ground up. It seemed they took the Denon AVR-5308 (same exact chassis) and changed things up - fully balanced, XLR, etc.

If they did designed the AVP-A1HD from the ground up, then I am 100% disappointed in their engineers. This thing looks like a total mess with circuit boards under circuit boards hidden under more boards.

I can understand if they were forced to take the AVR-5308 and changed it. But to start from the ground up and end up with that kind of mess is unacceptable to me.

This is a total mess:

2. I experienced two AVP-A1 failures personally. One was bought brand new and one was bought refurbished. Grassy experience one AVP-A1 failure.

3. Since I think the Yamaha CX-A5100 and others sound at LEAST as good as the Denon AVP-A1, I think the fully balance design was a 100% waste.

4. I have used 3 fans atop the AVP-A1 for a long time from almost the beginning and the rooms were always A/C cooled every time I used the AVP-A1. It has always been well ventilated.

If that's true, then you could well be right, that the engineers were forced to use the 5308's chassis, ended up with a compromised layout. That, combined with so many components needed to implement fully differential end to end and the large number of channels, and the class A preamps, equated to compromised longevity/reliability. Let's see if Gene has better luck with his, time will tell.

The list price of that 12 channel was only about 10% more than their 2 ch 50 W integrated amp, so it was a niche market AVP selling at close to mass market price ($4,500 for the AV8805).

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If that's true, then you could well be right, that the engineers were forced to use the 5308's chassis, ended up with a compromised layout. That, combined with so many components needed to implement fully differential end to end and the large number of channels, and the class A preamps, equated to compromised longevity/reliability. Let's see if Gene has better luck with his, time will tell.

The list price of that 12 channel was only about 10% more than their 2 ch 50 W integrated amp, so it was a niche market AVP selling at close to mass market price ($4,500 for the AV8805).

Gene already sold his AVP-A1, so hopefully whoever bought his AVP-A1 has better luck.

When I took every component out from the AVP-A1, there seemed to be enough parts to build 4 computers.

I think I would emphasize 2 salient points from this discussion:

1. When building from scratch/ ground up (which takes a lot of money for R&D, Scale of Economy, etc.), you can create a much simpler elegant cleaner design like the Bryston SP3 (don't know the insides of the SP4) and the DataSAT/ATI and Theta.

2. You don't need a fully balanced design because it doesn't sound any better than a well designed single-ended Pre-pros like the Bryston, Theta/DataSAT/ATI. Fully balanced designs will increase cost, number of parts, and risk of failure. However, XLR connectors are very nice and you don't need a fully balance for them.

 

[Bookmark]

I keep forgetting that your AVP-A1 was just the processor section.

You are quite right this is massively over engineered and stuffed to the gunnels with far too much for just a processor.

On the plus, the failures aside, it did do 8 years and in the end and technology has move on a tad since then. Of course if what has changed is not needed, then longer would have been better.

Still, the Yammy is working and you could almost have got two for the same price as the AVP and kept the other locked away in the Hermetically sealed, Temperature controlled, Emergency AV Disaster Recovery Bunker in the Basement, just in case. What we in the trade like to refer to as the HT EAVDRB.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Still, the Yammy (CX-A5100) is working and you could almost have got two for the same price as the AVP

Actually four (4).

Believe that?

With the new techs (Atmos, DTSX, etc.), I would say the CX-A5100 sounds better to me than my old AVP-A1HDCI.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I don't know why, but the USB cable in that pick bothers me. That's really the only way they could get a front panel USB? Really?

They didn't try to hide it though.

If less part is better (the @ADTG question) the Marantz HDAM thing is really silly. It is pretty obvious to me that they don't make any audible difference, and I am sure Marantz knows that too.

Look at the pictures below, they have virtually identical layout, yet Marantz has to find room to jam-packed (@ADTG's favorite) fit the 13 channel (so called 11.2 processing) audibly useless HDAM module in a box that is only slightly larger. Denon also has the audibly uselessAL32, but at last that's done digitally so minimum heat contribution and don't take extra space.

Yeah, useless bloatware like in PC, except worse because with AVR and AVP this bloatware also means more useless hardware that crowd the already horseshoed chassis.

If their intention is to build machines that only last 5 - 8 years, then they have achieved their goal.

 

[rbdan]

I used to be for separates with prepro and power amps. Now I am more for upper mid range AVR plus power amps. By the way, I starting using Eco mode and the 4400 is now several degrees Celsius cooler so it practically works like a prepro mode, a very nice surprise.

Yep. Same here. 4400 using ECO mode with an Outlaw 5000.

Total investment $1,450 and more importantly, the next time I need to upgrade due to HDMI or what every new standards, I will be able to upgrade to a similar level AVR on close out for around $850.


Dan

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It is almost possible to repair something unless there are too costly to justify the repair, or there are too many components physically destroyed (typically by heat or arc burn). In his case, they did replace one board so it wasn't that they didn't try. I assume ADTG chose not to send it back the second time with a loud complaint to Denon's upper management. It could have been just something got loose during shipping after the board replacement. I cannot imagine Denon would charge $1,000 without even bench testing the unit before they shipped it out. Let alone a $7500 AVP, if I had such trouble with my $3000 AV8801 I would not stop until I get to their management and get a satisfactory answer.

@ADTG, I don't know how to contact Grassy but could you please let him know (in case he doesn't),some guys had troubles with the AVP after the board upgrade and the service center could not fix his/their issues but apparently the PanurgyOEM.com guys in NJ got their job done. To save time, he probably should try to insist on sending the Panurgy and bypass the other local centers.

One user seemed to have the worse nightware, he had it out of service for 5-6 months (less than a month it seemed once it got to Panurgy).

See post#25623
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/1006957-official-denon-avp-a1hd-avp-a1hdci-poa-a1hd-poa-a1hdci-owners-thread-855.html

Post#25861
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/1006957-official-denon-avp-a1hd-avp-a1hdci-poa-a1hd-poa-a1hdci-owners-thread-863.html

I did a quick browse on that AVS thread to see if the AVP had a lot of reported failures. It certainly was not the case based on that 903 page thread that is still active.

I think we have to wait for Grassy's report to be more conclusive.

My AVP-A1 was sent to the PanurgyOEM in NJ TWICE. Not once, but twice.

1st time: PanurgyOEM in NJ said they replaced AV board. I got it back 1 month later, Audio Output NOT FIXED.

2nd time: PanurgyOEM in NJ said they couldn’t do anything else. When I got it back, now HDMI also broken. No inputs had any Audio or Video.

So after 2nd time, Best Buy manager gave me full refund for the attempted repair (~$1,000).

As you say, it depends on how extensive the damage is and where the damage is.

If the AVP-A1 were built like the 16CH Pre-Pros from ATI, DataSAT, Theta that look like a PC where there’s very little circuit boards, I bet the repair would have been a lot simpler.

Maybe @Grassy will have good luck with his AVP-A1.

 

[PENG]

My AVP-A1 was sent to the PanurgyOEM in NJ TWICE. Not once, but twice.

1st time: PanurgyOEM in NJ said they replaced AV board. I got it back 1 month later, Audio Output NOT FIXED.

2nd time: PanurgyOEM in NJ said they couldn’t do anything else. When I got it back, now HDMI also broken. No inputs had any Audio or Video.

So after 2nd time, Best Buy manager gave me full refund for the attempted repair (~$1,000).

As you say, it depends on how extensive the damage is and where the damage is.

If the AVP-A1 were built like the 16CH Pre-Pros from ATI, DataSAT, Theta that look like a PC where there’s very little circuit boards, I bet the repair would have been a lot simpler.

Maybe @Grassy will have good luck with his AVP-A1.

So it went to the right place afterall. I know it is a lot to expect from someone who had the unit for 8 years and did get the repair cost refunded, but I wouldn't rule out the good possibility that it could have been repaired if sent to them the 3 rd time with an ultimatum to their service manager.

As I said in my post, it is "always possible to repair......". Just notice I had a typo though.. Note that fewer circuit boards could mean higher board replacement cost. Also, as I mentioned before, if the Denon hadn't adopted the end to end differential schemes there would have been fewer boards for sure, and much less heat, especially if they also simply used higher bias class AB preamp instead of the fully class A preamps. All of those things do not, or should not make the sound audibly better.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

My AVP-A1 was sent to the PanurgyOEM in NJ TWICE. Not once, but twice.

1st time: PanurgyOEM in NJ said they replaced AV board. I got it back 1 month later, Audio Output NOT FIXED.

2nd time: PanurgyOEM in NJ said they couldn’t do anything else. When I got it back, now HDMI also broken. No inputs had any Audio or Video.

So after 2nd time, Best Buy manager gave me full refund for the attempted repair (~$1,000).

As you say, it depends on how extensive the damage is and where the damage is.

If the AVP-A1 were built like the 16CH Pre-Pros from ATI, DataSAT, Theta that look like a PC where there’s very little circuit boards, I bet the repair would have been a lot simpler.

Maybe @Grassy will have good luck with his AVP-A1.

Wow, kudos to Best Buy for their excellent customer service.

 

[TechHDS]

I find it hard to believe that units “can’t” be repaired. Is it that technicians aren’t trained properly? Or is it that manufacturers of these units build them in a way so that there very hard to repair? You spend 5K or more and it can’t be repaired? It is for that reason I refuse to spend over 3K for unit.


Mike

 

[RichB]

I find it hard to believe that units “can’t” be repaired. Is it that technicians aren’t trained properly? Or is it that manufacturers of these units build them in a way so that there very hard to repair? You spend 5K or more and it can’t be repaired? It is for that reason I refuse to spend over 3K for unit.

Mike

There is knowledge and price. Board level replacement becomes out of the question when parts do not exist.
There are chips that are out of production so now you have to find scrap parts.

Most of us have had to make the decision about cost-effectiveness of repair. I am not spending over $1000 on repairing my wife's almost 20 year old Lexus.

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So it went to the right place afterall. I know it is a lot to expect from someone who had the unit for 8 years and did get the repair cost refunded, but I wouldn't rule out the good possibility that it could have been repaired if sent to them the 3 rd time with an ultimatum to their service manager.

I did ask the Best Buy manager to send it back the 3rd time since it couldn’t be any worse - it had no audio or video at this point. But he refused.

Best Buy had to absorb the cost of $1,000 that Denon charged.

If Denon had replace every board, it is always POSSIBLE that it could have been fixed, but there’s no guarantee until it’s done.

But who’s willing to pay for all that ?

Let’s just say that the Yamaha CX-A5100 on closeout price would be less expensive than the cost of replacing 2 circuit boards on the AVP-A with no guarantee that it would fix the problem.

And I enjoy the CX-A5100 a lot more now than I ever enjoyed the AVP-A1 in terms of sound features (ATMOS, DTSX, DSU).

So looking back I am 100% glad I didn’t spend the potential money to fix the AVP.

Perhaps the 1st lesson is that old Pre-pros are went to be replaced by newer Pre-Pros that sound better.

I think my only real regret is that I wasted my money on the AVP-A1.

I should have spent $1500-2000 on a new Pre-pro in the FIRST PLACE, not almost $6,000 (MSRP was $7500).

Perhaps the 2nd lesson is that Pre-Pros that cost a lot more don’t actually sound any better than Pre-pros that cost a lot less.

 

[Bookmark]

Eight, ten years from now, who knows what bunch of new features will be in the boxes. Will there even be a box? Will it fly, hover, self assemble or come as a set of lego bricks?

I hope I get to see it, maybe buy it

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think the Outlaw-976 AVP 7.2-CH has great potential. All they need to do is replace 99% of the legacy inputs with 4 more XLR outputs for Atmos 7.2.4 (make it $1,000).

Man, that'll be a tough AVP to beat - a $1,000 Atmos/DTS:X 7.2.4 AVP.

Then replace the 5 CH RCA inputs on the Model 5000 amp with 6 CH XLR inputs (make it $750).

So then you could have totally separates AVP + AMP Atmos 7.2.4 for $2,500 (12-Ch XLR Amp).

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

How about this:

An AVR (such as Denon X4400H) with preouts (AVR used as preamp)
An external multi-channel amp of your choice.

There's your separates.