Denon AVR x-4400h Audyssey Setup puts not recommended settings for crossover and speaker size?

[john20182050]

Thanks all for great responses. Without you guys, I would have been scratching my head for months. Your responses helped to better config quickly

 

[TLS Guy]

Those "many", probably did not rely on plotted graphs like I do. If they went by ears, that's subjective and less reliable than the mic/software (far from perfect either, of course..). I played with different XO post Audyssey, plot graphs each time, and picked the best looking one. There are many permutations so it was time consuming, 2 to 4 hours for me each time I did it.



I agree, that is a great idea. Someone has to take the lead, and it will add cost!! So who will take the risk? I bet the chance that will happen will be about 0.01% or less, because AVRs are for the mass market, in which very few people will take advantage such feature and it won't make any difference to the vast majority of the users.



I doubt that, but we are going to have to agree to disagree on this, and I really don't know your set up, but I know mine.



I am sure it is noticeable, but to the vast majority of the users, I doubt that. Many actually are happier with the thick and heavy bass than more accurate bass achievable by whatever means.

Well I do use measurement and lots of them.

Speaker designers put enormous effort into their crossover designs. The to have to use an off the shelf crossover is not acceptable.

I do believe and integrated design is the preferred way to accurate bass. This is a hard area to get right. I was in a Hi-Fi dealers last week evaluating theater chairs. I had a little play and the bass of some tuned enclosures left a lot to be desired. I was suing the slow movement of the Mozart Piano concerto No 21 as the test. Tubby piano with no definition on the slowly articulated pizzicato bass strings was poor. In fact I could not tell one note from another.

Here I have perfectly articulation with each note quite distinct and easy to discern one note from the next.

So yes, I find it essential to use my own bass crossovers and mix in the LFE and it works.

So probably the best solution for really accurate reproduction is to use a pre/pro or preouts, with an external crossover and amps and mix in the LFE.

I just don't see an off the shelf crossover providing state of the art reproduction. It fact it won't except by luck and chance.

 

[PENG]

Well I do use measurement and lots of them.

Speaker designers put enormous effort into their crossover designs. The to have to use an off the shelf crossover is not acceptable.

I do believe and integrated design is the preferred way to accurate bass. This is a hard area to get right. I was in a Hi-Fi dealers last week evaluating theater chairs. I had a little play and the bass of some tuned enclosures left a lot to be desired. I was suing the slow movement of the Mozart Piano concerto No 21 as the test. Tubby piano with no definition on the slowly articulated pizzicato bass strings was poor. In fact I could not tell one note from another.

Here I have perfectly articulation with each note quite distinct and easy to discern one note from the next.

So yes, I find it essential to use my own bass crossovers and mix in the LFE and it works.

So probably the best solution for really accurate reproduction is to use a pre/pro or preouts, with an external crossover and amps and mix in the LFE.

I just don't see an off the shelf crossover providing state of the art reproduction. It fact it won't except by luck and chance.

If you have Auyssey XT32 SubEQ HT, I am 100% sure you can get a flatter curve with your Omni mic, though you will likely still have to try different crossovers. Again, in my set up, the Audyssey (software) and D&M (hardware, i.e. AVR/AVP) combo just cannot integrate the speakers with the subwoofers to my satisfaction; and I suspect your concept of variable slope could be the key to success. Audyssey claimed that with XT32, they have the resolution to do LFE+Main and setting bass capable speakers to "Large", but the crossover slopes are fixed by the hardware, so while Audyssey's algorithm can determine the best crossover they see fit, if you pick a lower enough XO, the effects of cancellation and boost at the lower range could not be dealt effectively. It is hard for me to express what I wanted to express, but say, in an extreme example, and hypothetically, if the hardware can impose a near brick wall crossover slope, Audyssey should be able to do a better job.

As it is now, I agreed with @lovinthehd on the following point

In his post# 4, "their marketing people don't want to offend you about the size of your stuff or something" and post#7, "... they think that because their "largish" speakers are "full range" they get upset if they get set to "small", or sometimes even suggested to be set to "small". Guys often aren't good with stuff like less watts and small speakers ..."

I know it is impossible to convince you room eq, such the imperfect Audyssey can work well for the 15-200 Hz range, especially after you try a more recent AVP fitted with XT, but looking at the graph you posted I have little doubt you give it another chance, by picking up a newer one such as the AV7702 MKII that has XT32 Sub EQ HT. For you though, I would recommend the AV7703 as the minimum so you can play with the $20 Editor App, though that would require a lot of patience (trail and error) and to me must be used with REW/UMik-1 or the Omni mic that you already have. Those who use the editor app without checking after each adjustment with their mic really have to rely on their golden ears.

 

[TLS Guy]

If you have Auyssey XT32 SubEQ HT, I am 100% sure you can get a flatter curve with your Omni mic, though you will likely still have to try different crossovers. Again, in my set up, the Audyssey (software) and D&M (hardware, i.e. AVR/AVP) combo just cannot integrate the speakers with the subwoofers to my satisfaction; and I suspect your concept of variable slope could be the key to success. Audyssey claimed that with XT32, they have the resolution to do LFE+Main and setting bass capable speakers to "Large", but the crossover slopes are fixed by the hardware, so while Audyssey's algorithm can determine the best crossover they see fit, if you pick a lower enough XO, the effects of cancellation and boost at the lower range could not be dealt effectively. It is hard for me to express what I wanted to express, but say, in an extreme example, and hypothetically, if the hardware can impose a near brick wall crossover slope, Audyssey should be able to do a better job.

As it is now, I agreed with @lovinthehd on the following points.

1) Higher crossovers with stereo subs should work better than lower crossover with mono subs or stereo subs but placed in ways that they could be localized.

2) In his post# 4, "their marketing people don't want to offend you about the size of your stuff or something" and post#7, "... they think that because their "largish" speakers are "full range" they get upset if they get set to "small", or sometimes even suggested to be set to "small". Guys often aren't good with stuff like less watts and small speakers ..."

I know it is impossible to convince you room eq, such the imperfect Audyssey can work well for the 15-200 Hz range, especially after you try a more recent AVP fitted with XT, but looking at the graph you posted I have little doubt you give it another chance, by picking up a newer one such as the AV7702 MKII that has XT32 Sub EQ HT. For you though, I would recommend the AV7703 as the minimum so you can play with the $20 Editor App, though that would require a lot of patience (trail and error) and to me must be used with REW/UMik-1 or the Omni mic that you already have. Those who use the editor app without checking after each adjustment with their mic really have to rely on their golden ears.

Well, I am at the stage with this rig that the enemy of good is better.

I have not had a chance to investigate things, but Audyssey does something highly deleterious to the sound. It is a curious effect but unpleasant none the less. I strongly suspect the answer lies in the phase/time domain.

As you know I really careful about this in my designs, and would therefore be more likely to detect it.

In closing I would say I have never heard more realistic bass than this rig produces. It is totally clean and highly articulate. It contributes greatly to the superb reproduction of human speech. I never have to make adjustments to improve dialog or engage any Eq effects of any stripe.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Well I do use measurement and lots of them.

Speaker designers put enormous effort into their crossover designs. The to have to use an off the shelf crossover is not acceptable.

I do believe and integrated design is the preferred way to accurate bass. This is a hard area to get right. I was in a Hi-Fi dealers last week evaluating theater chairs. I had a little play and the bass of some tuned enclosures left a lot to be desired. I was suing the slow movement of the Mozart Piano concerto No 21 as the test. Tubby piano with no definition on the slowly articulated pizzicato bass strings was poor. In fact I could not tell one note from another.

Here I have perfectly articulation with each note quite distinct and easy to discern one note from the next.

So yes, I find it essential to use my own bass crossovers and mix in the LFE and it works.

So probably the best solution for really accurate reproduction is to use a pre/pro or preouts, with an external crossover and amps and mix in the LFE.

I just don't see an off the shelf crossover providing state of the art reproduction. It fact it won't except by luck and chance.

That is an impressive curve for 1/24th octave smoothing. It looks better than most other plots I've seen with 1/6th octave smoothing.

 

[PENG]

That is an impressive curve for 1/24th octave smoothing. It looks better than most other plots I've seen with 1/6th octave smoothing.

Haha mine's flatter, even with no smoothing. I guess it may not be a good comparison though as I use REW and Umik mic.

 

[lovinthehd]

If you have Auyssey XT32 SubEQ HT, I am 100% sure you can get a flatter curve with your Omni mic, though you will likely still have to try different crossovers. Again, in my set up, the Audyssey (software) and D&M (hardware, i.e. AVR/AVP) combo just cannot integrate the speakers with the subwoofers to my satisfaction; and I suspect your concept of variable slope could be the key to success. Audyssey claimed that with XT32, they have the resolution to do LFE+Main and setting bass capable speakers to "Large", but the crossover slopes are fixed by the hardware, so while Audyssey's algorithm can determine the best crossover they see fit, if you pick a lower enough XO, the effects of cancellation and boost at the lower range could not be dealt effectively. It is hard for me to express what I wanted to express, but say, in an extreme example, and hypothetically, if the hardware can impose a near brick wall crossover slope, Audyssey should be able to do a better job.

As it is now, I agreed with @lovinthehd on the following points.

1) Higher crossovers with stereo subs should work better than lower crossover with mono subs or stereo subs but placed in ways that they could be localized.

2) In his post# 4, "their marketing people don't want to offend you about the size of your stuff or something" and post#7, "... they think that because their "largish" speakers are "full range" they get upset if they get set to "small", or sometimes even suggested to be set to "small". Guys often aren't good with stuff like less watts and small speakers ..."

I know it is impossible to convince you room eq, such the imperfect Audyssey can work well for the 15-200 Hz range, especially after you try a more recent AVP fitted with XT, but looking at the graph you posted I have little doubt you give it another chance, by picking up a newer one such as the AV7702 MKII that has XT32 Sub EQ HT. For you though, I would recommend the AV7703 as the minimum so you can play with the $20 Editor App, though that would require a lot of patience (trail and error) and to me must be used with REW/UMik-1 or the Omni mic that you already have. Those who use the editor app without checking after each adjustment with their mic really have to rely on their golden ears.

Well the only thing I'd disagree with here is that I said nothing about stereo subs, not much point to those IMO.

 

[PENG]

Well the only thing I'd disagree with here is that I said nothing about stereo subs, not much point to those IMO.

Sorry, for some reason I thought you had more than one sub and don't have localization issues so I must have assumed you had at least one on each side. Will edit it out..

 

[lovinthehd]

Sorry, for some reason I thought you had more than one sub and don't have localization issues so I must have assumed you had at least one on each side. Will edit it out..

In my bedroom I do have two subs in the front of the room but they're not stereo, just mono.

 

[PENG]

In my bedroom I do have two subs in the front of the room but they're not stereo, just mono.

I actually meant mono subs but one placed on the left, the other on the right. Do you have that kind of placement, or two subs side by side, stacked etc.? As for "stereo" sub, I must be dreaming about it, as I don't do that either.

 

[lovinthehd]

I actually meant mono subs but one placed on the left, the other on the right. Do you have that kind of placement, or two subs side by side, stacked etc.? As for "stereo" sub, I must be dreaming about it, as I don't do that either.

LOL no worries yes they're more right/left placed in that room (stacked in my workshop due space constraints). In living room subs surrounding my seating.