How low do does a subwoofer really need to go?

[snakeeyes]

FWIW, the KEF centers aren't traditional MTM designs, given that the UniQ acts as both the T and the M. From the vertical dispersion measurements I've seen of their towers at Stereophile (like the R700), lobing shouldn't present a problem.

What about Monitor Audio Silver 350c? It has a tweeter above the mid and woofers to each side.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I'd presume that's because it's not a static target. Variances in frequency, amplitude, Q, what panels are resonating, etc. can have an impact on the outcome.

Also, I would expect that towers of competent design and likely something beyond say a “tower” which might be nothing more than a BS speaker with a built in stand, would have addressed any such behavior. To me, cab resonance is pretty much overstated.

 

[shadyJ]

What about Monitor Audio Silver 350c? It has a tweeter above the mid and woofers to each side.

Lobing shouldn't be too bad with the 350c. It will exhibit lobing up to the midrange crossover point, 830 Hz. That is an unusually high crossover for that design though. It's not perfect, but its better than the usual MTM that uses no midrange drivers.

 

[snakeeyes]

Lobing shouldn't be too bad with the 350c. It will exhibit lobing up to the midrange crossover point, 830 Hz. That is an unusually high crossover for that design though. It's not perfect, but its better than the usual MTM that uses no midrange drivers.

Ok to cut to the chase... Anything other than Kef R200c or R600c that can work without lobing? I guess if not.....a vertical bookshelf 6.5 to 7in woofer 2 way design that won’t push my TV too far “up the wall” is the answer?

 

[KenM10759]

Yes, the other designs work. I owned a Martin Logan Motion C center speaker for a while (in my previous guest room 5.1 setup) and it was OK. That said, I never again want to have a center speaker without Uni-Q. The best I ever heard was a (very expensive) KEF Ci3160 speaker used as an installed center behind an acoustically transparent screen. Incredible. The left & right mains were also the same speaker, at each side of a 100+ inch screen.

 

[snakeeyes]

Yes, the other designs work. I owned a Martin Logan Motion C center speaker for a while (in my previous guest room 5.1 setup) and it was OK. That said, I never again want to have a center speaker without Uni-Q. The best I ever heard was a (very expensive) KEF Ci3160 speaker used as an installed center behind an acoustically transparent screen. Incredible. The left & right mains were also the same speaker, at each side of a 100+ inch screen.

I’m hoping to get maybe close to 10 years out of a speaker purchase like this for the man cave / theater room.
I know I will continue to tinker on my 2.1 setup in our master bedroom and rotate speaker pairs in and out on that one. Being realistic of course... Audioholic, guilty as charged...

 

[shadyJ]

Ok to cut to the chase... Anything other than Kef R200c or R600c that can work without lobing? I guess if not.....a vertical bookshelf 6.5 to 7in woofer 2 way design that won’t push my TV too far “up the wall” is the answer?

Every speaker that aren't either a singe full range driver or a coaxial driver will have lobing patterns. It's inevitable when the drivers are spaced apart that they will interfere with each other at off axis angles when attempting to play the same frequency. It isn't really a big deal if the lobing is relegated to bass frequencies because the room messes up any hope of a smooth response in that region anyway. Its also not as big of a deal when the lobing occurs on a vertical plane, so aligning drivers vertically isn't bad.

The Kef center speakers would be good to avoid this problem. Another good design is the SVS Ultra center. Also the Hsu CCB-8. The Kef Q150 or Q350 tipped over on its side would work for a center with a lower profile than a traditional bookshelf speaker. Look for three-way centers where the midrange is aligned with the tweeter vertically. Also, the lower that the midrange is crossover over to the tweeter, the better. To be sure, that doesn't guarantee that the center will be good, but it will at least avoid lobing.

 

[Verdinut]

I remember having read a hi-fi review article in the early 1960's, in which it was stated that, to be able to reproduce a 20 Hz sound, you needed to have a room with one of its dimensions of at least the wavelength of that sound, in this instance: 56.5 feet. What a fallacy!

Also, at that time, some pseudo-experts were saying that it would have taken a multitude of woofers to be able to reproduce such a low frequency. With time, research and technology have proven the opposite for the bassaholics' and pipe organ lovers' amazement.

 

[snakeeyes]

I remember having read a hi-fi review article in the early 1960's, in which it was stated that, to be able to reproduce a 20 Hz sound, you needed to have a room with one of its dimensions of at least the wavelength of that sound, in this instance: 56.5 feet. What a fallacy!

Also, at that time, some pseudo-experts were saying that it would have taken a multitude of woofers to be able to reproduce such a low frequency. With time, research and technology have proven the opposite for the bassholics' and pipe organ lovers' amazement.

Curious about those low organ notes. Is there any list of cds of pipe organ music that you recommend? I like most genres and especially stuff with bass.

 

[Verdinut]

Curious about those low organ notes. Is there any list of cds of pipe organ music that you recommend? I like most genres and especially stuff with bass.

I'll make a short list of the ones I know of with some 16 and 32 foot stop notes. I'll get back to you later on this.

I do have the equipment to reproduce them. Do you ?

System: https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/my-7-channel-system.111234/

 

[Verdinut]

The lower the sub goes, the more power it will take to drive it at a level close to flat. 32Hz is pretty doggone good. That's low enough to rattle the doors.

How about a system with speakers that can reproduce 16 Hz which is the fundamental resonance of a 32 foot organ pipe?

System: https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/my-7-channel-system.111234/

 

[snakeeyes]

I'll make a short list of the ones I know of with some 16 and 32 foot stop notes. I'll get back to you later on this.

I do have the equipment to reproduce them. Do you ?

System: https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/my-7-channel-system.111234/

I’m not sure what will happen if I play 16hz. The specs on my Rythmik LVX12 sub say 14hz though. Might be interesting to see.

 

[Verdinut]

I’m not sure what will happen if I play 16hz. The specs on my Rythmik LVX12 sub say 14hz though. Might be interesting to see.

- King of Instruments (Delos label -DE3503)

- Fantaisie Triomphale (Chandos Hybrid SACD - CHSA5048)

- Mussorgsky: Pictures at an Exhibition (Dorian -DOR-90117)

- Poulenc: Concerto for Organ ( Gillian Weir, organ-English Chamber Orch. Linn label)

- Tsar of Instruments (Music from Russia -Iain Quinn, organ -Chandos or Musical Heritage Soc.)

The three first listed are rather easy to get. The others may be hard to get now, but you might see them on eBay later on.

It would be good to get your impressions when you have listened to some.

 

[Verdinut]

I’m not sure what will happen if I play 16hz. The specs on my Rythmik LVX12 sub say 14hz though. Might be interesting to see.

I had forgotten to add to the list the Wanamaker Grand Court Organ at the Macy's Center City department store in Philadelphia. That is one of the biggest organs on this planet. That organ is a beast. It has 6 keyboards. Total blower power of over 150 HP to drive it. It features over 28,000 pipes, 399 stops, nine 32 foot pipe stops, one stop using 32 foot stop pipes plus extensions resulting in the equivalence of a 64 foot pipe stop with a low fundamental frequency of 8.18 Hz, and over fifty 16 foot stops.
You can get a few CD recordings of that huge instrument. I have one which is discontinued and out of price.

Also, the organ at the Liverpool Cathedral featuring French music with Ian Tracey, on the second disc listed, also has a 64 foot resultant bass stop. Of course, we have to be on location to feel those low vibrations. At present, no sound equipment is capable of reproducing those infra bass frequencies, and I doubt that a future possibility will ever happen.

 

[snakeeyes]

I had forgotten to add to the list the Wanamaker Grand Court Organ at the Macy's Center City department store in Philadelphia. That is one of the biggest organs on this planet. That organ is a beast. It has 6 keyboards. Total blower power of over 150 HP to drive it. It features over 28,000 pipes, 399 stops, nine 32 foot pipe stops, one stop using 32 foot stop pipes plus extensions resulting in the equivalence of a 64 foot pipe stop with a low fundamental frequency of 8.18 Hz, and over fifty 16 foot stops.
You can get a few CD recordings of that huge instrument. I have one which is discontinued and out of price.

Also, the organ at the Liverpool Cathedral featuring French music with Ian Tracey, on the second disc listed, also has a 64 foot resultant bass stop. Of course, we have to be on location to feel those low vibrations. At present, no sound equipment is capable of reproducing those infra bass frequencies, and I doubt that a future possibility will ever happen.

Thanks. I ordered a few. I’ll share my thoughts in the next week or so.

 

[highfigh]

I played some tracks from the pipe organ in Atlantic City, which also has 64' pipes- since I don't use a sub, the lowest notes were so strong that the upper bass and mids were modulated, similar t what happens when someone talks behind spinning fan blades and someone hears it from the other side.

I wouldn't recommend trying to enjoy pipe organ music without subs or woofers that are restricted to the low end.

 

[Verdinut]

I played some tracks from the pipe organ in Atlantic City, which also has 64' pipes- since I don't use a sub, the lowest notes were so strong that the upper bass and mids were modulated, similar t what happens when someone talks behind spinning fan blades and someone hears it from the other side.

I wouldn't recommend trying to enjoy pipe organ music without subs or woofers that are restricted to the low end.

You were actually hearing intermodulation distortion with the woofers trying to reproduce simultanuously both very low frequencies and upper bass and mid frequencies.

What is the disc with the organ at Atlantic City? I would like to get one if it's still available.

 

[Verdinut]

I played some tracks from the pipe organ in Atlantic City, which also has 64' pipes- since I don't use a sub, the lowest notes were so strong that the upper bass and mids were modulated, similar t what happens when someone talks behind spinning fan blades and someone hears it from the other side.

I wouldn't recommend trying to enjoy pipe organ music without subs or woofers that are restricted to the low end.

Yeah! I think I am going to wait for the search and purchase of a CD for that monster instrument using 600 HP blowers and over 33,000 pipes. It took 3½ years to build it but it hasn't been fully functional since a hurricane hit the arena in 1944. Work is being done at present to restore it but the total restoration work is supposed to be completed by July 1, 2023. That's five years from now and before they come out with a new recording, , I might be deaf then.

 

[snakeeyes]

Every speaker that aren't either a singe full range driver or a coaxial driver will have lobing patterns. It's inevitable when the drivers are spaced apart that they will interfere with each other at off axis angles when attempting to play the same frequency. It isn't really a big deal if the lobing is relegated to bass frequencies because the room messes up any hope of a smooth response in that region anyway. Its also not as big of a deal when the lobing occurs on a vertical plane, so aligning drivers vertically isn't bad.

The Kef center speakers would be good to avoid this problem. Another good design is the SVS Ultra center. Also the Hsu CCB-8. The Kef Q150 or Q350 tipped over on its side would work for a center with a lower profile than a traditional bookshelf speaker. Look for three-way centers where the midrange is aligned with the tweeter vertically. Also, the lower that the midrange is crossover over to the tweeter, the better. To be sure, that doesn't guarantee that the center will be good, but it will at least avoid lobing.

I’m hoping to try the Q350 out as 3 identical and the middle one on its side. This seems to be a great scientific approach but I hope it sounds musical and also keeps up for movies. Thanks.

 

[Danzilla31]

I’m hoping to try the Q350 out as 3 identical and the middle one on its side. This seems to be a great scientific approach but I hope it sounds musical and also keeps up for movies. Thanks.

Hey keep us posted on how those sound my friend always been interested in those myself