Gene got the Ban Hammer!

[John Parks]

I was scrolling through the Audiophiles On A Budget (AOAB) page on Facebook ( https://www.facebook.com/groups/audiophilesonabudget/ ) when I saw this exchange between @gene and Mark Henninger (from AVSForum and is the moderator of said page):

I agree with Gene on this one as this Mark guy likes to throw up silly stuff to get people lathered up and, of course, for clickbait points. It was an interesting page at first, but, like everything else on FB, the crazies ooze out of the cracks and hijack the whole premise. Plus, the AVS guy is a bit too liberal with his ban authority - compensating for something? Hmm... If there are any serial instigators on our beloved AH site, go over to FB, sign up for the AOAB page and give 'em hell!

 

[everettT]

Who the hell uses Facebook

 

[John Parks]

I do... I mean, ever since Myspace was no longer en vogue.

 

[Hetfield]

I just hate AVS. Bunch of A-HOLES. Sensitive to everything you say.

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[yepimonfire]

I still visit them from time to time due to the much greater traffic than AH but they're definitely not as knowledgeable as the folks here. I don't know the entire context of the conversation but I can tell you I agree with @gene Anecdotally, I've never liked what audyssey did to the sound above about 200hz, it definitely didn't sound flat to me, and I can also say that I've used audyssey with different sets of speakers and despite each measuring identically to their target curve, each time I got a different timbre. Audyssey made my R-15m's sound brighter with a more prominent midrange, but made my RP series speakers sound like I had draped a blanket over them.

I've also occasionally had to adjust level trims, even independently from what an spl meter reads. I have my right front set 2dB louder than what audyssey or an spl meter suggests it should because the left sounds louder, throwing off the balance. I can't explain why, but I know that trusting a microphone to read 75dB results in a lopsided soundstage.

Lastly, anyone can take any number of speakers that measure +-2dB and they will all sound vastly different, a FR graph does a good job of showing obvious problems, but it can't tell you how the timbre will actually sound.

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[lovinthehd]

I think the point was that a microphone is more accurate at determining specifics of frequency response than our ears are. Whether one chooses to use such in analyzing what you're getting is another matter, and doesn't mean it trumps preference for your own use. I trust a microphone for specifics more than my ears, but I'd still go with my ears for my preferences in response. That said I think Mark was too quick to set the ban hammer.

 

[shadyJ]

If you talk to an actual microphone engineer, they will say that a microphone is nothing like a human hearing. They both sense air pressure waves, but that is where the similarities end. A comprehensive enough set of measurements can give you a good indicator of how a speaker can sound, if you already know the acoustics that they will be placed in, and you know how to look at the measurements. The irony here is that Gene runs a website known for its more objective emphasis on audio with lots of measurements, and Mark is lecturing him about measuring over listening, but Mark's reviews are garbage in terms of useful measurements.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Alright, James, you did, in fact, catch my attention with this. It's in my presentation for this weekend.

A microphone is a sensitive measurement device that senses pressure fluctuations caused by sound waves. We know this. What Mark (and commonly others) misunderstand is that a single microphone connected to a computer doesn't equal how the human ear detects sound. Gene is right, our ears are capable of doing something that our measurement system cannot. Even a single ear has an uncanny ability to detect distance (though not so much direction). Our ears, just two of them, have the ability to equal a 3D directional measurement with a forward bias. Our ears are not omnidirectional and our brain processes the signal far more intelligently that current computer-based measurement.

 

[gene]

I was scrolling through the Audiophiles On A Budget (AOAB) page on Facebook ( https://www.facebook.com/groups/audiophilesonabudget/ ) when I saw this exchange between @gene and Mark Henninger (from AVSForum and is the moderator of said page):
View attachment 25133
View attachment 25134

I agree with Gene on this one as this Mark guy likes to throw up silly stuff to get people lathered up and, of course, for clickbait points. It was an interesting page at first, but, like everything else on FB, the crazies ooze out of the cracks and hijack the whole premise. Plus, the AVS guy is a bit too liberal with his ban authority - compensating for something? Hmm... If there are any serial instigators on our beloved AH site, go over to FB, sign up for the AOAB page and give 'em hell!

Mark got hurtfeelioma because I called out his constant trolling and misinformation on his own page. I started going there to help answer questions on his group but his basic premise is beyond $300 all receivers sound the same, and anything that sounds different is easily measurable despite he barely measures anything he reviews or even knows how to measure amplifier performance. He also loves the bouncy house speakers and didn't appreciate my sentiments on that but whatever. IMO, Mark suffers from a cognative bias known as Dunning-Kruger effect so there is little one can do to get him to change his views or welcome other people's opinions without getting hurtfeelioma.

 

[gene]

I think the point was that a microphone is more accurate at determining specifics of frequency response than our ears are. Whether one chooses to use such in analyzing what you're getting is another matter, and doesn't mean it trumps preference for your own use. I trust a microphone for specifics more than my ears, but I'd still go with my ears for my preferences in response. That said I think Mark was too quick to set the ban hammer.

Before Mark got hurtfeelioma and banned me from his group, I was going to post this:
https://www.audioholics.com/editorials/why-we-measure-audio

 

[gene]

If you talk to an actual microphone engineer, they will say that a microphone is nothing like a human hearing. They both sense air pressure waves, but that is where the similarities end. A comprehensive enough set of measurements can give you a good indicator of how a speaker can sound, if you already know the acoustics that they will be placed in, and you know how to look at the measurements. The irony here is that Gene runs a website known for its more objective emphasis on audio with lots of measurements, and Mark is lecturing him about measuring over listening, but Mark's reviews are garbage in terms of useful measurements.

LMAO so true. Thanks for making such a great point about this

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Mark got hurtfeelioma because I called out his constant trolling and misinformation on his own page. I started going there to help answer questions on his group but is basic premise is beyond $300 all receivers sound the same, and anything that sounds different is easily measurable. He also loves the bouncy house speakers and didn't appreciate my sentiments on that but whatever. IMO, Mark suffers from a cognative bias known as Dunning-Kruger effect so there is little one can do to get him to change his views or welcome other people's opinions without getting hurtfeelioma.

Dear I ask, what are bouncy house speakers?

 

[Johnny2Bad]

" ... When I discover new facts, I change my opinion. What do you do sir? ..."

-John Kenneth Gailbraith

 

[shadyJ]

Dear I ask, what are bouncy house speakers?

Bouncey House speakers are those Atmos speakers that rest on top of main speakers and try to simulate overhead speakers with reflections off the ceiling. As you know, such a design is likely not going to be effective as real overhead mounted speakers. You need a specific height ceiling, specific listening distance from the main speakers, a ceiling with certain reflective properties, etc.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Mark got hurtfeelioma because I called out his constant trolling and misinformation on his own page. I started going there to help answer questions on his group but his basic premise is beyond $300 all receivers sound the same, and anything that sounds different is easily measurable despite he barely measures anything he reviews or even knows how to measure amplifier performance. He also loves the bouncy house speakers and didn't appreciate my sentiments on that but whatever. IMO, Mark suffers from a cognative bias known as Dunning-Kruger effect so there is little one can do to get him to change his views or welcome other people's opinions without getting hurtfeelioma.

Hey, he's entitled to his alternative facts, Gene! Just like inauguration day crowd and finger size...

 

[Swerd]

Dunning-Kruger effect

I had look that up. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

As I now understand it, everyone suffers from the Dunning-Kruger effect… except me .

 

[John Parks]

Mark got hurtfeelioma because I called out his constant trolling and misinformation on his own page. I started going there to help answer questions on his group but his basic premise is beyond $300 all receivers sound the same, and anything that sounds different is easily measurable despite he barely measures anything he reviews or even knows how to measure amplifier performance. He also loves the bouncy house speakers and didn't appreciate my sentiments on that but whatever. IMO, Mark suffers from a cognative bias known as Dunning-Kruger effect so there is little one can do to get him to change his views or welcome other people's opinions without getting hurtfeelioma.

"Hurtfeelioma" I gotta use that one! I usually tell my kids they have butthurtitus (or they will!).

 

[lovinthehd]

"Hurtfeelioma" I gotta use that one! I usually tell my kids they have butthurtitus (or they will!).

I got threatened with butthurtitis as a kid plenty!

 

[Verdinut]

If you talk to an actual microphone engineer, they will say that a microphone is nothing like a human hearing. They both sense air pressure waves, but that is where the similarities end. A comprehensive enough set of measurements can give you a good indicator of how a speaker can sound, if you already know the acoustics that they will be placed in, and you know how to look at the measurements. The irony here is that Gene runs a website known for its more objective emphasis on audio with lots of measurements, and Mark is lecturing him about measuring over listening, but Mark's reviews are garbage in terms of useful measurements.

I entirely agree with that. The following is a situation that I would bet some of you have experienced too with several people in a room.

The similarities no longer exist when you listen to a home made music recording with surrounding noises which have nothing to do with it. When you play back the tape, you hear all the surrounding noises that your brain had eliminated when you were at the time in the recorded space. Microphones don't have of course that ability of eliminating unwanted noise like our brains.
What is peculiar about the experience is that we hear on the playback that surrounding noise which we now find annoying and that we don't remember having noticed when the recording was made.

 

[Johnny2Bad]

It's a crude but illustrative example: Next St Patty's day go to the local parade if you have one, or if you're in Canada, you can attend a Rememberance Day ceremony (Veterans Day) on Nov 11 later this year. Or maybe grab a copy of "State Of Grace" (which is a great movie) and listen to the opening scene. Inevitably there will be bagpipes playing.

Now, bagpipes have a constant drone, and the technical term for the device that provides that sound is ... wait for it ... a drone. Our brains eventually discard the drone and follow the melody alone. Yes, it might take a moment, but sooner or later if you can stand it in the meantime, it goes away. Unless you think about it, then it becomes obvious again for a moment.

A microphone will never ever discard that note. Clearly this is an illustration of the ear and the microphone discerning different things.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0100685/