The SEPARATES vs. AVR Thread

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I feel like if we're going to wish we could do better...

I know you aren't in the Atmos camp, but I'd love to have 9.1.4 as an option. Not that I need it...

It'd be nice to have some sort of PEQ for independent subs. Quality bass management for any of these is a must.

NAD does the same thing with motherboard+add-on cards+crazy markup

It would be nice to have a company (like Outlaw) that offers CUSTOM BUILT simple "Motherboard + Cards" Pre-pro sans the crazy markup.

You want 5.1? No problem.

You don't want old legacy RCA/Optical/Coax connectors? Subtract $250.

So you want only HDMI Inputs, XLR 5.2 Outputs, DTS:X/HD, ATMOS/TrueHD, No EQ, big box chassis, 5YR warranty = $2,000 Pre-pros.

You want 9.1.4? No Problem - add $500.

You want Room Correction (Dirac, ARC, Audyssey, Trinnov) - add $1,000.

fully upgradable by replacing HDMI card (future HDMI version X),Sound Decoder Card (future DTS/Dolby format) ,EQ card, Preamp Output Card, etc.

 

[Verdinut]

LOL. Yeah, why aren't they all straight, instead of looking all bent/crooked?

Wish list for Outlaw 976:
1. Bigger chassis/ventilation holes
2. STRAIGHT capacitor arrays.

How about a rack mount option as well? That's an option which is available with OPPO's Blu-ray players and I'm using it.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

You invest the $20K. With yearly earnings of only 5%, you can each year buy a new good previous year's Denon AVR with pre-outs at a good rebate, and sell cheaply or give away each following year the previous one, and that without touching a bloody cent on your $20K.

I like that idea.

 

[Verdinut]

Uh Oh, here it is. Your almost perfect pre-pro for $899 from Outlaw. Looks like there is a main board on the bottom and the HDMI card on top. Very simple.

Only bad thing is that it is in a small box (4.6"H x 11"D x 17"W). Wish they could have used a bigger box (8"H x 17"D x 17"W) for more breathing room.

Doesn't everyone know that all the high-end pre-pros come in big boxes? Does it cost a lot more to use a box 2 times the size?

But still extremely simple layout. I don't see any Ventilation holes, though.

Who needs thinking Room Correction?

$899 Outlaw 976 Pre-pro with XLR outputs.

I sent Outlaw an email asking them why they didn't use a bigger chassis for better ventilation and more high-end look.

It would be nice to see someone from Outlaw respond.

I find a depth of 17" a little excessive. That exceeds depth of a lot of consoles, cabinets and power amps including some pro amps. IMO. a depth of 14 inches would be more practical. Nothing prevents to increase the height to make room for components and air circulation.

 

[panteragstk]

I find a depth of 17" a little excessive. That exceeds depth of a lot of consoles, cabinets and power amps including some pro amps. IMO. a depth of 14 inches would be more practical. Nothing prevents to increase the height to make room for components and air circulation.

If it were that deep rack mounting would be pretty necessary. I've got a PC case in my rack with a 25" depth so 17" doesn't seem so bad...

 

[Verdinut]

If it were that deep rack mounting would be pretty necessary. I've got a PC case in my rack with a 25" depth so 17" doesn't seem so bad...

I gave up the idea of purchasing QSC RMX850a's because the depth of their chassis exceeded 16 inches and my console's depth is only 14½ inches.

 

[Mikado463]

I would be nice to have a company (like Outlaw) that offers CUSTOM BUILT simple "Motherboard + Cards" Pre-pro sans the crazy markup.

You want 5.1? No problem.

You don't want old legacy RCA/Optical/Coax connectors? Subtract $250.

So you want only HDMI Inputs, XLR 5.2 Outputs, DTS:X/HD, ATMOS/TrueHD, No EQ, big box chassis, 5YR warranty = $2,000 Pre-pros.

You want 9.1.4? No Problem - add $500.

You want Room Correction (Dirac, ARC, Audyssey, Trinnov) - add $1,000.

fully upgradable by replacing HDMI card (future HDMI version X), Sound Decoder Card (future DTS/Dolby format) ,EQ card, Preamp Output Card, etc.

how about those of us that want just a nice simple line stage ? For two channel listening I couldn't care less about a 'pre-pro' ..........

 

[Irvrobinson]

how about those of us that want just a nice simple line stage ? For two channel listening I couldn't care less about a 'pre-pro' ..........

But you hung around for a 1,126 post discussion mostly about AVRs and pre-pros with separate amps? Obviously, as Carly Simon would say, this song is not about you.

 

[Mikado463]

But you hung around for a 1,126 post discussion mostly about AVRs and pre-pros with separate amps? Obviously, as Carly Simon would say, this song is not about you.

No Irv, that's why I asked the question. Just wondering if there was anyone else thinking the same, obviously you're not. No biggie, but then I didn't read all 1126 posts either !

 

[M Code]

I would be nice to have a company (like Outlaw) that offers CUSTOM BUILT simple "Motherboard + Cards" Pre-pro sans the crazy markup.

You want 5.1? No problem.

You don't want old legacy RCA/Optical/Coax connectors? Subtract $250.

So you want only HDMI Inputs, XLR 5.2 Outputs, DTS:X/HD, ATMOS/TrueHD, No EQ, big box chassis, 5YR warranty = $2,000 Pre-pros.

You want 9.1.4? No Problem - add $500.

You want Room Correction (Dirac, ARC, Audyssey, Trinnov) - add $1,000.

fully upgradable by replacing HDMI card (future HDMI version X), Sound Decoder Card (future DTS/Dolby format) ,EQ card, Preamp Output Card, etc.

Lets assume for a moment the above product definition is real..
Then the following basic questions need to be answered..
1. What will be its pricing for retail, dealer, factory FOB?
2. Once pricing is finalized, How many units can be sold? Over what time period?

The other financial factors are:
1. What will be its tooling cost for metal work, circuit boards and cosmetic ID?
2. To develop an AVR or AV processor requires an engineering team of at least 9, 3 hardware, 4 software, 2 mechanical.
3. What is the time-line? From development start to mass production start? To design, tool, write software, debug software, validate, verify technical compliance, get safety agency & technology approvals, build prototypes, make 2 pre-production runs before MP start.

Some of the basic answers are:
1. 18 Month development time line
2. $650K, Budget for tooling
3. $100K, Royalty, agency certification fees
4. $1.8 million, Financial underwriting for engineering overhead, staff of 10, test equipment
5. $250K, Budget for prototype, preproduction samples

In summary, to develop an AVR or AV processor requires a minimum investment of $3 million before any payback of sales $. This is why smaller companies are not able to stay competitive against the higher level Japanese audio brands. They may be capable of building the subject products, but it will always take longer and their technology will typically be outdated compared to the primary Japanese brands.

Just my $0.02...

 

[Irvrobinson]

No Irv, that's why I asked the question. Just wondering if there was anyone else thinking the same, obviously you're not. No biggie, but then I didn't read all 1126 posts either !

Try the Benchmark Media DAC3L. I just bought one. It does analog and digital. A bit pricey, but the best measurements I've ever seen, and the build quality is commensurate with the price. The granularity of the volume control is far better via the remote for digital than the DAC1-HDR (my prior pre-amp/DAC),and it really puts out the volts into low input impedances for low-gain amplifiers.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

This one is nice too.

RME ADI-2

 

[Irvrobinson]

This one is nice too.

RME ADI-2

I saw that unit when I was hunting around for what's new on the market. Then I remembered why I ruled it out when I bought the DAC1 - it has a wall wart power supply. That's a non-starter in my audio system. Otherwise an interesting product though.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

I saw that unit when I was hunting around for what's new on the market. Then I remembered why I ruled it out when I bought the DAC1 - it has a wall wart power supply. That's a non-starter in my audio system. Otherwise an interesting product though.

Yes, my O2 headphone amps are powered that way. Over time though, I got used to it.

 

[3db]

Have any of these modular units ever actually gotten updated modules? I've seen these be released for years and then people that buy them get pissed because no module updates ever come out. That to me would be the perfect solution...if new modules were released. Literal future proofing.

I thought I read in another forum that users have updated their AVR chassis with new modules. I will check to see if i can find some.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

how about those of us that want just a nice simple line stage ? For two channel listening I couldn't care less about a 'pre-pro' ..........

Of course, if you just want 2.0 or 2.1, then just order XLR output for only FL, FR, Sub1 (or no Sub), No Sound Decoder, no Room EQ, etc.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

No Irv, that's why I asked the question. Just wondering if there was anyone else thinking the same, obviously you're not. No biggie, but then I didn't read all 1126 posts either !

It’s a fair question and I almost went back to include 2.0 as the standard and people could add more Channels, Surround Decoders, Room EQ, etc. But I got lazy.

As @M Code says, it would take a lot of money and resources for a company to do that, but I think it’s a good idea for custom built Separates.

1. You want 2Ch without any Sound Decoders, EQ - no problem - it’s standard.

2. You 5.2CH w/ Sound Decoders, HDMI, Room EQ, etc. - no problem- just add the HDMI Card, Sound Decoder Card, Room EQ Card (your choice of Dirac vs Trinnov vs ARC vs Audyssey vs Lyngdorf).

3. You want 16CH ATMOS/ DTS:X - no problem, just add more channels.

4. You want a matching Amp - no problem- get a 2Ch, 5CH, 6CH, 8CH, or 2 x 8CH amps for your 16CH ATMOS, etc.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

But you hung around for a 1,126 post discussion mostly about AVRs and pre-pros with separate amps? Obviously, as Carly Simon would say, this song is not about you.

Well, the name of this thread is “Separates vs AVR”, not “Pre-pros vs AVR”.

And the purest separates are the pure analog stereo preamps and amps.

 

[PENG]

Well, the name of this thread is “Separates vs AVR”, not “Pre-pros vs AVR”.

And the purest separates are the pure analog stereo preamps and amps.

Purest? In theory there may be no end to that, but in practice you could get down to external power supplies, separate preamps and monoblock power amps, assuming there is no monoblock preamps that one can purchase.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Purest? In theory there may be no end to that, but in practice you could get down to external power supplies, separate preamps and monoblock power amps, assuming there is no monoblock preamps that one can purchase.

I have actually heard of mono-preamp.