The SEPARATES vs. AVR Thread

[KEW]

Hey LovinTheHD,

After I finished hooking up the 3400, we sat down with a glass of wine and started listening to some music. At that point I don't know if my wife even knew what I had done. I immediately noticed a difference and thought to myself "Chillout, you will get used to the new sound". After 40 minutes or so it was grating on my nerves and that is when my wife made her remark about satellite radio. It would have to be a pretty significant difference for my wife to notice and care enough to say anything! So, I re-ran Audyssey multiple times and swapped the cables to compare over and over again.

What mode? - Generally I listen to music with Audyssey flat and dynamic EQ on so that is what I set both receivers to when comparing.

Dan

What about Dynamic Volume?

Do you still have the 3400 to do further testing?

 

[rbdan]

What about Dynamic Volume?

Do you still have the 3400 to do further testing?

Dynamic Volume is off. No I sent it back awhile ago.

To be honest I haven't even thought about it until I ran into this thread. Now I'm wondering again about what caused the significant difference in sound

Now I am considering again, getting a mid level AVR and pairing it with an external amp for three or five of the channels. If some of you Audioholics are running the 3400 with external amps and love the sound then it must be the amps in the 3400 that caused the issue for me.

Dan

 

[A_Shah]

Hello,
Can you help , I have a separate two channel system in the same room as my 6.1 HT system my Marantz SR5005 was purchased in 2011 and now seems to be giving me distortion and boomy voice the Front L&R speakers are Kef LS50 Kef Ref. center channel and anthem tower srounds sub is a SVS ported
I recently purchased a OPPO 205 UHD to listen to two channel system this unit does have the 7.1 analog outs so I am debating wither I should get a AV Receiver or purchase a Emotiva BassX seven channel amp or a wyred4sound MC7150 a 7 channel Class D amp where as the Emotiva BassX 7 is a class AB amp. if their are any other recomendations for separates I would greatly appreciate if readers will let me know . The budget around 2.5K
my two channel system consists of Daedalus Audio Poseidon speakers, Amplification is custom made Odyssey Kismet stereo amp. and two Mark Sanders custom made QuickSliver M-60 mono tube amps , Don Sachs tube Pre-amp. DS-2 and PS audio DirectStream DAC. all wiring is Cadris Clear channel
So the HT will only be for Movies
Asghar

 

[PENG]

Hey LovinTheHD,

After I finished hooking up the 3400, we sat down with a glass of wine and started listening to some music. At that point I don't know if my wife even knew what I had done. I immediately noticed a difference and thought to myself "Chillout, you will get used to the new sound". After 40 minutes or so it was grating on my nerves and that is when my wife made her remark about satellite radio. It would have to be a pretty significant difference for my wife to notice and care enough to say anything! So, I re-ran Audyssey multiple times and swapped the cables to compare over and over again.

What mode? - Generally I listen to music with Audyssey flat and dynamic EQ on so that is what I set both receivers to when comparing.

Dan

That's very interesting, my X3400H sounded extremely well, as good as my separate preamp and power amp. I returned it only because I wanted to try Atmos. I couldn't believe the 3400 can sound like a pair of separates that costs 5X more.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I have a question for all you audioholics.

I have a Denon 4520 without HDMI 2.0 so I picked up a Denon AVR-X3400H. Unfortunately it just sounded "weak/thin". Even my wife asked me "Why does it sound like satellite radio?".

I ran Audyssey multiple times without any real change in the sound. I was going to get an external amp to see if that helped but everyone over on AVSforum told me that unless I was pushing the internal amps to their limit an external amp would not change the sound. "All amps sound the same"

I originally had a Denon 4800 before my 4520, they are both very powerful sounding receivers but the 3400 just did not sound as good to me at all. I don't know if it is due to the internal amps or DACs or DSPs or AL32 Processing or ?.

I asked a "pro/reseller" over on another site "If it wasn't the difference in the internal amps, what technical feature is causing the difference, so I can know what to look for?" he replied "Your comparing a flagship model to a mid-level model, what did you expect?" Obviously that didn't help me.

I wish it was due to the amps because I would love to pick up a relatively cheap receiver and use a 3 or 5 channel external amp. That way it wouldn't be as painful upgrading in the future.

So I picked up an HDFury Vertex to be able to wait until HDMI 2.1 was built in to receivers and then I would get another "flagship" receiver.

I have a pretty simple setup compared to most here.

Denon 4520, B&W 685 (L/R),B&W HTM62 (Center),B&W M1(Surrounds x 2) and a Klipsch KSW 15 sub.

I would love some feedback from all you guys on what would cause such a significant sound difference.

Thanks
Dan

I owned the $7500 Denon AVP-A1HDCI, $5500 Denon AVR-5308 flagships, and the Denon X3100.

Flagships really isn’t the key.

The key is in the setup.

Try more settings.

Increase the subwoofer level to your preference. This is important.

Try Audyssey Bypass L/R + Dynamic EQ.

You can even increase Dynamic EQ effect by manually increasing all Channel Levels by 5dB.

Key is to try different settings.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

My Marantz SR5005 was purchased in 2011 and now seems to be giving me distortion...

I recently purchased a OPPO 205 UHD to listen to two channel system...

Should I get an AV Receiver ?

Or purchase a Emotiva BassX seven channel class AB amp?

Or a wyred4sound MC7150 a 7 channel Class D amp?

The budget is $2.5K.

My two channel system: Odyssey Kismet stereo amp, 2 Mark Sanders QuickSliver M-60 mono tube amps, Don Sachs tube Pre-amp....

If your HT Marantz AVR is defective, then yes, get another AVR or pre-pro.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I sure do love the very clean look of the upcoming ATI ATP16 pre-pro.

 

[KEW]

I sure do love the very clean look of the upcoming ATI ATP16 pre-pro.

Your Yamaha "honeymoon" sure didn't last long!

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

"Shipping in April for a price tentatively pegged at less than $10,000."

Ouch.

 

[PENG]

Hey LovinTheHD,

So, I re-ran Audyssey multiple times and swapped the cables to compare over and over again.

From my experience, one has to be very patient to get good results with Audyssey. I always use REW to check the results and then re-run Audyssey if I don't like what I see. If it is not done right, depending on your room, you can definitely do worse. So if it doesn't sound good, like sounding "thin", use Audyssey off, or re-run it if you have time.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Your Yamaha "honeymoon" sure didn't last long!

No, no, no. Don’t get me wrong.

The more I use it, the more I am 100% in love with the CX-A5100!

I actually prefer the CX-A5100 over the AVP-A1HDCI for movies and TV shows.

I’m sure the upcoming ATI pre-pro will sound great. But I am not convinced it will sound better than the CX-A5100 in any way, especially for movies and TV shows.

The CX-A5100 is equal to the AVP-A1 for 2Ch music, but the CX-A5100 is really cool in terms of dialogue clarity. I think Yamaha puts a lot of effort in the center channel dialogue.

I just wanted to give ATI/DataSAT extra points for their extremely clean interface. I would like all the high-end models from Yamaha, Denon, Marantz, McIntosh, etc., do the same.

Whether it’s pre-pros or amps, let’s keep it as clean and simple as possible.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

"Shipping in April for a price tentatively pegged at less than $10,000."

Ouch.

I don’t see myself paying anymore than $3K on another pre-pro after the Denon AVP experience.

 

[lovinthehd]

Hey LovinTheHD,

After I finished hooking up the 3400, we sat down with a glass of wine and started listening to some music. At that point I don't know if my wife even knew what I had done. I immediately noticed a difference and thought to myself "Chillout, you will get used to the new sound". After 40 minutes or so it was grating on my nerves and that is when my wife made her remark about satellite radio. It would have to be a pretty significant difference for my wife to notice and care enough to say anything! So, I re-ran Audyssey multiple times and swapped the cables to compare over and over again.

What mode? - Generally I listen to music with Audyssey flat and dynamic EQ on so that is what I set both receivers to when comparing.

Dan

By mode I meant other than the Audyssey settings, but rather specific sound mode (Dolby I thought was different between these two for example). I take it the comparison is the same speaker set as used on the 4520 i.e. no Atmos ? The cable swapping was between the 3400 and the 4520?

 

[PENG]

By mode I meant other than the Audyssey settings, but rather specific sound mode (Dolby I thought was different between these two for example). I take it the comparison is the same speaker set as used on the 4520 i.e. no Atmos ? The cable swapping was between the 3400 and the 4520?

A logical explanation is that he didn't play with Audyssey enough to get it right and just happened the calibration he did wasn't a good one; and that his room is good enough to sound good without room EQ.

I am keeping the X4400H so will post some graphs in a new thread. I was quite concerned with the "thin" sound the first time I tried it in the HT setup after the first Audyssey run, but I am happy with it now.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

A logical explanation is that he didn't play with Audyssey enough to get it right and just happened the calibration he did wasn't a good one; and that his room is good enough to sound good without room EQ.

I am keeping the X4400H so will post some graphs in a new thread. I was quite concerned with the "thin" sound the first time I tried it in the HT setup after the first Audyssey run, but I am happy with it now.

I have the X4400H. I’m curious as to what ‘thin’ sound means as I have not experienced that.

 

[PENG]

I have the X4400H. I’m curious as to what ‘thin’ sound means as I have not experienced that.

Take a look of the new thread I just started.. I will have more comments but obviously only after I have more hours on it.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I have the X4400H. I’m curious as to what ‘thin’ sound means as I have not experienced that.

I always associate "thin sound" to lack of bass.

The opposite of "thin" would be "full balance" sound = plenty of bass.

Love that bass!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I'm wondering if anyone else out there with the same model as yours has had this issue.

Forgot to respond to this. 8 years ago I ordered a Refurbished AVP-A1HDCI from an authorized dealer, which supposedly meant it came from the main Denon Repair Factory in NJ. It had the same issue - no volume output.

I guess they couldn't fix it 8 years ago and they still can't fix it now.

Like @M Code said, these complex machines are meant to be used and throw away when they break, not to be repaired like the significantly more simple analog amps and preamps.

And that's why some of us don't trust refurbished complex machines.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

I always associate "thin sound" to lack of bass.

The opposite of "thin" would be "full balance" sound = plenty of bass.

Love that bass!

‘Thin’ is still subjective. With all the different ways that AVR allows you to alter the lower frequencies, I have never experienced this particular negative symptom. To me it sounds like configuration is the key here. Plus an active subwoofer helps too.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

Forgot to respond to this. 8 years ago I ordered a Refurbished AVP-A1HDCI from an authorized dealer, which supposedly meant it came from the main Denon Repair Factory in NJ. It had the same issue - no volume output.

I guess they couldn't fix it 8 years ago and they still can't fix it now.

Like @M Code said, these complex machines are meant to be used and throw away when they break, not to be repaired like the significantly more simple analog amps and preamps.

And that's why some of us don't trust refurbished complex machines.

That is very sad. You would think replacing various boards would solve the issue since it’s probably a component somewhere on one of the boards that is causing this. Or a bad solder joint.