What is the world coming to? Vinyl outlives CDs at Best Buy.

[Alex2507]

I agree with what you are saying, but it is also reasonable to want to understand a phenomenon even if it is human behavior.
I would hypothesize that the process of pulling out the album, setting it on the turntable, cleaning the record, and gently setting the stylus down provides time for enhancement of the anticipation of listening to the selected music, and there may well be something in our core makeup that causes us to value something more if we must first invest care and effort (might we even say nurturing?) to bring it to fruition!
For me, whatever that is, it is not enough, but I can understand how others might revel in this experience.

I can't understand how anybody might revel in that. They can come flip my records if it turns 'em on so much. We all know the rules for what's what with audio and we get that people like different things but this is the equivalent of sh!t sandwiches out-selling cheese burgers. My excuse for vinyl is that used is cheap and like riding fat girls and mopeds, it's still kinda fun.

 

[cpd]

I agree with what you are saying, but it is also reasonable to want to understand a phenomenon even if it is human behavior.
I would hypothesize that the process of pulling out the album, setting it on the turntable, cleaning the record, and gently setting the stylus down provides time for enhancement of the anticipation of listening to the selected music, and there may well be something in our core makeup that causes us to value something more if we must first invest care and effort (might we even say nurturing?) to bring it to fruition!
For me, whatever that is, it is not enough, but I can understand how others might revel in this experience.

I think that is a big part of it. I think another part of it is that knowing that you are only two - six songs away from having to flip/change your record forces you to focus a little more on the music -- as opposed to "setting it and forgetting it" while you putter around the house.

 

[cpd]

I can't understand how anybody might revel in that. They can come flip my records if it turns 'em on so much. We all know the rules for what's what with audio and we get that people like different things but this is the equivalent of sh!t sandwiches out-selling cheese burgers. My excuse for vinyl is that used is cheap and like riding fat girls and mopeds, it's still kinda fun.

Except that it really is not the equivalent of sh!t sandwiches out-selling cheese burgers. And even if it was, the sh!t sandwich eater's opinion is just as valid as someone that likes cheeseburgers. The masses may not agree but that does not mean the minority opinion on what they enjoy is any less real. For comparison, there are a lot of really bad artists that have a lot more fans than a ton of great musicians. There simply are no "rules for what's what with audio." I mean there are rules for engineering sound reproduction components, but none of those rules tell me what I think sounds good/is more enjoyable to listen to/interact with.

 

[KEW]

I can't understand how anybody might revel in that. They can come flip my records if it turns 'em on so much. We all know the rules for what's what with audio and we get that people like different things but this is the equivalent of sh!t sandwiches out-selling cheese burgers. My excuse for vinyl is that used is cheap and like riding fat girls and mopeds, it's still kinda fun.

I did not word that as well as I might have. I edited my post accordingly. I did not intend that someone would revel in the record changing experience, but, rather, the overall experience - primarily the resulting musical experience after investing the effort and care to achieve it!

Given what we know about how expectations (as proven by placebo studies) can effect our perceptions by releasing endorphins, it is not a stretch to believe the ritual of changing a record in expectation of hearing exceptional sound might also release endorphins which would enhance the enjoyment of listening to music.

 

[Auditor55]

I never understand the criticism of people who purchase and enjoy analog forms of music. The consumption and enjoyment of music is a perfectly subjective and personal thing. In the circles I travel everybody recognizes that digital media provides, at least the opportunity, for more accurate audio reproduction. But, if only objective data concerning accuracy mattered to subjective enjoyment of music, then you might as well press mute and just read the response curves of your system.

Why is it, as another poster suggested, "misinformed" to enjoy vinyl? Some may enjoy music more when they feel associated nostalgia. Some may enjoy it more when they feel connected to a trend. Some may enjoy music more when they have to physically interact with the media, or when they can hold a 12.5" square piece of cover art in their hands while listening to it. Some may enjoy it more because they have to work a little harder to make it sound better. None of those people are wrong.

Take speaker selection as an example. I believe that the people that post here would, for the most part advise somebody to purchase the speakers that sound best to them despite the fact they may not be as accurate as another pair. Why is this issue any different? And what does any of it matter if, in the end, these people are financially supporting the music industry and audio industry that we all purport to love. Just be happy these people are enjoying music - it only benefits you in the end.

And the parallels drawn to vaccination and microwaves are inaccurate. The conclusions are accurate -- vaccinations are critical to public health and microwaves are safe. But the safety of vaccinations and microwave use are objective/scientific issues. There is a right and a wrong there. There is no such right or wrong in how human beings respond to and enjoy different forms of art.

Nothing wrong with people buying vinyl for the reasons you stated above. However people take issue when certain unsubstantiated claims are made regarding the superiority of vinyl over other mediums.

 

[Swerd]

I never understand the criticism of people who purchase and enjoy analog forms of music. The consumption and enjoyment of music is a perfectly subjective and personal thing.

Yes, what you said above is true. The enjoyment of the musical content of a recording is absolutely subjective. But assigning that same subjectivity to choosing one method of reproducing recorded music over another is missing the target. This is especially true if it comes to espousing an aged technology over a more modern, convenient, and superior one. People can enjoy what ever music they like, and they can use what ever playback method they like. But if they tell me the archaic form of music playback they prefer actually sounds better, they open themselves to criticism.

And the parallels drawn to vaccination and microwaves are inaccurate. The conclusions are accurate -- vaccinations are critical to public health and microwaves are safe. But the safety of vaccinations and microwave use are objective/scientific issues. There is a right and a wrong there. There is no such right or wrong in how human beings respond to and enjoy different forms of art.

Parallels can indeed be drawn between the idea that LP playback sounds better, and ideas rejecting vaccination or microwave ovens. Preference for records may be harmless, but all these share flawed thinking – that their ideas are valid because it's their idea. And never mind the facts, in fact, damn the facts.

For example, in the debates over LP vs. digital, people have claimed "If I prefer it… It must sound better to me… It must actually be better". (I'm not making this up to score debating points, I've actually heard this.) I've witnessed similar flawed logic from people opposed to vaccinations. They might say, "If I believe it's unsafe, that's my opinion. How can you object? How dare you require me to vaccinate my kids?" They usually make no effort to address the broader issue that failure to vaccinate is a clear danger to public health. There is abundant evidence for that. As for the danger of using microwave ovens, there simply is no evidence for it. But people who are interested only in their own opinions, evidence for or against something has little to do with it.

So it comes down to this. How can anyone accept such arguments when the facts are wrong and the thought processes are illogical?

 

[sterling shoote]

What brought about these this vs. that conversations? My adult sons, aged 32 and 35, never really knew CDs from vinyl as I did. For the most part, they started out with the original iPad and earbuds. They had a very pleasing experience with the few mp3 files which could be downloaded to their devices. Today, they've just progressed to more storage capacity for the most part. So, when they hear vinyl from a home hi-fi, perhaps inherited, they understandably think vinyl is awesome. Why, because they are comparing vinyl played to speakers to mp3 played to earbuds, not CD in any playback manner. Now, take my Sons times several million similar vinyl encounter scenarios and it's really easy to see why vinyl is making a come back. Funny though, I too have taken a look again at vinyl. After all, I still have a nice collection of albums from before the advent of CD. Firing up my 43 year old Sony PS-4750 I compared the albums to CDs of same material. Obviously, no snap, crackle, and pop from the CDs; but, some of my LPs actually did seem to sound better than the CD version. This lead me to further exploration; and, in some cases, I am preferring LPs to even some 24/192 downloads, and this is using the old turntable and 1980's Shure V15V-MR cartridge. I do not care to argue about any of this though, there's no need, since the decision for how you store music is too compound to make a compelling argument for the way it ought to be for everybody. Enjoy music as you prefer. As can be seen from my signature, I seem to use what is most pleasing within the listening environment I'm constrained to and media I have or don't have in hand: CDs, Compact Cassettes, LPs, DATs, multi-channel SACDs, mp3 streams, and ALAC downloads. It's all good!

 

[Mikado463]

People can enjoy what ever music they like, and they can use what ever playback method they like. But if they tell me the archaic form of music playback they prefer actually sounds better, they open themselves to criticism.

As you would open yourself to criticism thinking that all digital is better, it's not. There's plenty of lousy CD recordings out there.

Those that argue supreme superiority of one format over the other obviously haven't experienced the best of both.

 

[Irvrobinson]

As you would open yourself to criticism thinking that all digital is better, it's not. There's plenty of lousy CD recordings out there.

Those that argue supreme superiority of one format over the other obviously haven't experienced the best of both.

No one has argued that a higher resolution format can make a bad recording sound good. Fidelity means that a bad recording still sounds like a bad recording. Nonetheless, by every objective measure a CD does have "supreme superiority" over an LP. That doesn't mean an LP still can't sound excellent, that doesn't mean every CD will hold a better recording than every LP, it just means that the media is intrinsically better. What we do with that media is a separate question altogether.

 

[Irvrobinson]

What brought about these this vs. that conversations?

Well, I did, expressing surprise that a retailer as mainstream as Best Buy would have an economic incentive to stock LPs but not CDs. Obviously, a really good recording on an LP played on a well-designed phonograph is going to sound better than a bad recording on a CD, or even an SACD or a Blu-ray.

 

[panteragstk]

Well, I did, expressing surprise that a retailer as mainstream as Best Buy would have an economic incentive to stock LPs but not CDs. Obviously, a really good recording on an LP played on a well-designed phonograph is going to sound better than a bad recording on a CD, or even an SACD or a Blu-ray.

I saw LPs at BB and their floor space for them was VERY small. When they carried CDs they had a very large chunk dedicated to them. How was it at the store you were at?

 

[cpd]

Yes, what you said above is true. The enjoyment of the musical content of a recording is absolutely subjective. But assigning that same subjectivity to choosing one method of reproducing recorded music over another is missing the target. This is especially true if it comes to espousing an aged technology over a more modern, convenient, and superior one. People can enjoy what ever music they like, and they can use what ever playback method they like. But if they tell me the archaic form of music playback they prefer actually sounds better, they open themselves to criticism.

As far as I can tell, nobody on this thread has suggested that playing records on a turntable sounds "better" (whatever that word means). I am not even arguing that point. For the record, I think digital sounds better, but I still enjoy using my turntable. I only brought the topic of subjectivity up in response to comments that seemingly argued that people that enjoy playing records on a turntable were somehow foolish or misinformed. If that's a fair characterization of those comments, then I don't think that's a fair characterization of people that may enjoy LP's. Regardless which medium sounds better, it does not follow that people cannot enjoy the experience of listening to music more when they play it on a turntable than when they select it from their computer.

Parallels can indeed be drawn between the idea that LP playback sounds better, and ideas rejecting vaccination or microwave ovens. Preference for records may be harmless, but all these share flawed thinking – that their ideas are valid because it's their idea. And never mind the facts, in fact, damn the facts.

For example, in the debates over LP vs. digital, people have claimed "If I prefer it… It must sound better to me… It must actually be better". (I'm not making this up to score debating points, I've actually heard this.) I've witnessed similar flawed logic from people opposed to vaccinations. They might say, "If I believe it's unsafe, that's my opinion. How can you object? How dare you require me to vaccinate my kids?" They usually make no effort to address the broader issue that failure to vaccinate is a clear danger to public health. There is abundant evidence for that. As for the danger of using microwave ovens, there simply is no evidence for it. But people who are interested only in their own opinions, evidence for or against something has little to do with it.

So it comes down to this. How can anyone accept such arguments when the facts are wrong and the thought processes are illogical?

The difference is that a person's opinion on what sounds good is not a fact. Conversely, it is a fact that microwaves and vaccinations are safe and that vaccinations save countless lives. It is not damning facts for someone to say they like the sound of an LP better. If a person extrapolates their preference to some form of universal truth, that is indeed flawed logic. But nobody I have seen in this thread has done that. Just because a person believes LP's sound better does not mean that is a proven fact. But if I am reading your posts correctly, and perhaps I am not, it seems to me you are doing the exact same thing in reverse.

 

[Swerd]

As you would open yourself to criticism thinking that all digital is better, it's not. There's plenty of lousy CD recordings out there.

Those that argue supreme superiority of one format over the other obviously haven't experienced the best of both.

I couldn't find the right emoticon to use, so I'll have to answer you. You have oversimplified and misunderstood what I said. Irvrobinson explained it well, so I won't try to repeat it.

We could use a palm-faced emoticon.

 

[cpd]

Well, I did, expressing surprise that a retailer as mainstream as Best Buy would have an economic incentive to stock LPs but not CDs. Obviously, a really good recording on an LP played on a well-designed phonograph is going to sound better than a bad recording on a CD, or even an SACD or a Blu-ray.

I will take the blame. I think it is an interesting discussion topic. But it wasn't your surprise at marketability that got me thinking about it. It was your statement that you would never consider nostalgia and trend as factors. I thought that was interesting as, at least for me, nostalgia is one part of the reason I enjoy my turntable. I'm not as happy about the trend part, due to its impacts on the cost of a record!

 

[Irvrobinson]

I will take the blame. I think it is an interesting discussion topic. But it wasn't your surprise at marketability that got me thinking about it. It was your statement that you would never consider nostalgia and trend as factors. I thought that was interesting as, at least for me, nostalgia is one part of the reason I enjoy my turntable. I'm not as happy about the trend part, due to its impacts on the cost of a record!

I would never consider nostalgia and trend as factors *for me*. Only a fool would deny they are profitable market factors. Like I said in an earlier post, I understand a "cool" technology, even when it's not objectively the best. I just get disgusted with fallacies. (Especially my own!)

 

[Irvrobinson]

I saw LPs at BB and their floor space for them was VERY small. When they carried CDs they had a very large chunk dedicated to them. How was it at the store you were at?

I read the Best Buy decision on a business news web site; actually, I never noticed LPs in a Best Buy. I did notice phonographs for sale in a Macy's, which I thought I would never see again.

 

[lovinthehd]

That's something along the lines of what I was wondering....does BB sell turntables now?

 

[Irvrobinson]

That's something along the lines of what I was wondering....does BB sell turntables now?

Oh yeah. Cartridges, turntables, record cleaning supplies and tools; it's all there on their web site.

 

[Swerd]

As far as I can tell, nobody on this thread has suggested that playing records on a turntable sounds "better" (whatever that word means). I am not even arguing that point.

For the record, I think digital sounds better, but I still enjoy using my turntable. I only brought the topic of subjectivity up in response to comments that seemingly argued that people that enjoy playing records on a turntable were somehow foolish or misinformed.

We agree on these points.

If a person extrapolates their preference to some form of universal truth, that is indeed flawed logic. But nobody I have seen in this thread has done that.

Again, we agree on that point too. No one in this thread did make that extrapolation. But we have had enough posters who have said that in the past. Were they just being sloppy with their statement, or guilty of flawed logic? I don't know. But it has happened enough that I chose to make it part of this discussion. I may not have made that clear enough when I brought it up.

I do appreciate your thoughtful and well-reasoned responses here, and I hope you'll make more frequent appearances.

 

[lovinthehd]

Oh yeah. Cartridges, turntables, record cleaning supplies and tools; it's all there on their web site.

Was more wondering about their B&M stores. Been a while since I've been in one....before vinyl's somewhat resurgence.