Using the affordable AVR-X3400H for Two Channel Stereo

[PENG]

So far my first attempt in using the editor app produced a slightly better looking graph than the one obtained after many hours using REW/miniDSP and the Subwoofer's PEQ. I am sure if I spent more time on editing, I could smooth the 20-200 Hz range to within +/- 2 dB with 1/12 smoothing. There is no point doing it because it's heading to the HT room soon. The plots below show 1/24 smoothing, the red one was the best I could get after many trials, including different positioning of the speakers, subwoofer and the sitting distance. The black trace was done with XT32 and edited just once, and without trying different speaker/sub/sitting positions.

So I am comfortable to conclude already, that XT32 can do a much better job than REW+miniDSP.

 

[panteragstk]

So far my first attempt in using the editor app produced a slightly better looking graph than the one obtained after many hours using REW/miniDSP and the Subwoofer's PEQ. I am sure if I spent more time on editing, I could smooth the 20-200 Hz range to within +/- 2 dB with 1/12 smoothing. There is no point doing it because it's heading to the HT room soon. The plots below show 1/24 smoothing, the red one was the best I could get after many trials, including different positioning of the speakers, subwoofer and the sitting distance. The black trace was done with XT32 and edited just once, and without trying different speaker/sub/sitting positions.

So I am comfortable to conclude already, that XT32 can do a much better job than REW+miniDSP.

View attachment 24752

Very cool. So I guess I need to fire up the app again. I'll probably wait until subs 3 and 4 are done so I've got a sub in each corner of the room. According to REWs room simulator that should get rid of my 40hz room mode. Then I can get (hopefully) nice and smooth response without tons of effort.

 

[mattlach]

I can't speak to this particular model, but when I upgraded my receiver in my livingroom, I moved my old AVR X1300W to my office for 2 channel use.

It's not terrible, but I kind of wish I had a real two channel power amp instead. Thing is though, it works well enough that I have a difficult time justifying spending the money on another real 2 channel power amp. Another annoyance is that a lot of the configuration menus are difficult to use without HDMI output to a TV or monitor, which I don't have where my office system resides

I used an old HT amp for my office as that is what I had kicking around, but I don't think I would if I were buying something specifically for that purpose. Even with a nice high end AVR like this one, I'd just worry about all the compromises that go into an all-in-one receiver like this, and all that digital gigahertz noise sitting so close to the analogue stages of the amp.

 

[mattlach]

Side note, at that price range, how do you guys like this amp by Schiit? I know they are more known for their headphone stuff, but it really seems interesting to me.

 

[-Jim-]

mattlach,

I have dual monitors in my home office, with my laptop in a docking station. One of the monitors has an HDMI input which could be connected to a HT receiver so you could tweak /set the receiver up. (I have a Cable box on that input most of the time.) Just a thought...

 

[Verdinut]

Side note, at that price range, how do you guys like this amp by Schiit? I know they are more known for their headphone stuff, but it really seems interesting to me.

IMO, it's overpriced for what it offers. Depending on your purpose for that kind of power amp, there are several options.
What would be the use for a 100w/ch power amp?

 

[PENG]

Got a little better results with the 4400 after just 2 trial runs and 2 tweaks:

This thing is promising, enough that once the unit is in place in my HT system, I will do more tweaking using the app, just for fun.

 

[snakeeyes]

Got a little better results with the 4400 after just 2 trial runs and 2 tweaks:

View attachment 24796

This thing is promising, enough that once the unit is in place in my HT system, I will do more tweaking using the app, just for fun.

Did the 3400 already die?

 

[PENG]

Did the 3400 already die?

Of course not. In fact, I bet the 3400 is going to be very reliable for long term use. It ran much cooler than my previous Denon including the 3805 and 4308. I really wanted to keep it as well but that would be crazy unless I can sell the AV8801. For C$744, I really can't think of anything better right now, for someone who needs no more than 7 channels.

 

[snakeeyes]

Of course not. In fact, I bet the 3400 is going to be very reliable for long term use. It ran much cooler than my previous Denon including the 3805 and 4308. I really wanted to keep it as well but that would be crazy unless I can sell the AV8801. For C$744, I really can't think of anything better right now, for someone who needs no more than 7 channels.

Which one is paired with your Focal towers? I think you said one of your rooms had Focal towers, right?

 

[PENG]

Which one is paired with your Focal towers? I think you said one of your rooms had Focal towers, right?

I have only tried the 3400 and 4400 with the LS50+Rythmik E15HP. The Focals are on the west wall in the HT room so I should probably try the 4400 on them first before swapping out the Marantz AV.

I returned the 3400 at the same time I picked up the 4400.

 

[KEW]

You kind of Blindsided Us by bringing up a 4400 out of the blue without any foremention of changing. Do you think the 3400 would have done just as well in your home theater room? Why did you switch from the 3400 to The 4400?

 

[PENG]

You kind of Blindsided Us by bringing up a 4400 out of the blue without any foremention of changing. Do you think the 3400 would have done just as well in your home theater room? Why did you switch from the 3400 to The 4400?

Sorry, I did mention I was getting one, I thought I did anyway. Between the two, the practical side of my brain prefers the 3400 because it runs so cool that I won't really need to as an external fan. The irrational side eventually won because I was tempted to try Atmos, without giving up my SBL and SBR. Now my HT room is only 12X18.5X7.5. It is jammed back with speakers and 5 subs as it is, so I haven't figure out where to put the Atmos speakers yet. All ideas are welcome.. I can tell you it isn't easy to admit not being able to tell much of a difference between the $560 (US) X3400H and the CA/A21. it is getting ridiculous, but thankfully I can still easily tell a difference between XT32, off, flat, reference, and between any of my speakers. Sometimes i thought I could even tell the difference between my external DACs too. By the way, before i return it, I did try the 3400's internal DAC using HDMI to my MacBook pro and love the sound quality. I really feel bad about returning it, and I hope whoever getting it will get a decent discount.

 

[-Jim-]

That explains it. Did you get the 4400 from BB or Gibbys? (My local BB never had it in stock.) Please become extremely proficient on the 4400 and the App as I'll need an expert soon.

 

[snakeeyes]

Sorry, I did mention I was getting one, I thought I did anyway. Between the two, the practical side of my brain prefers the 3400 because it runs so cool that I won't really need to as an external fan. The irrational side eventually won because I was tempted to try Atmos, without giving up my SBL and SBR. Now my HT room is only 12X18.5X7.5. It is jammed back with speakers and 5 subs as it is, so I haven't figure out where to put the Atmos speakers yet. All ideas are welcome.. I can tell you it isn't easy to admit not being able to tell much of a difference between the $560 (US) X3400H and the CA/A21. it is getting ridiculous, but thankfully I can still easily tell a difference between XT32, off, flat, reference, and between any of my speakers. Sometimes i thought I could even tell the difference between my external DACs too. By the way, before i return it, I did try the 3400's internal DAC using HDMI to my MacBook pro and love the sound quality. I really feel bad about returning it, and I hope whoever getting it will get a decent discount.

Hmm so what subs do you use with the Focal towers? Must be nice to have so many choices!

 

[panteragstk]

Sorry, I did mention I was getting one, I thought I did anyway. Between the two, the practical side of my brain prefers the 3400 because it runs so cool that I won't really need to as an external fan. The irrational side eventually won because I was tempted to try Atmos, without giving up my SBL and SBR. Now my HT room is only 12X18.5X7.5. It is jammed back with speakers and 5 subs as it is, so I haven't figure out where to put the Atmos speakers yet. All ideas are welcome.. I can tell you it isn't easy to admit not being able to tell much of a difference between the $560 (US) X3400H and the CA/A21. it is getting ridiculous, but thankfully I can still easily tell a difference between XT32, off, flat, reference, and between any of my speakers. Sometimes i thought I could even tell the difference between my external DACs too. By the way, before i return it, I did try the 3400's internal DAC using HDMI to my MacBook pro and love the sound quality. I really feel bad about returning it, and I hope whoever getting it will get a decent discount.

Well, I'd put the Atmos speakers in the ceiling... Sorry, couldn't help it.

i actually used some small Cambridge Soundworks cubes for "on ceiling" testing with Atmos. Worked very well. They'll be replaced once I get time to do the Speakercraft line array ceiling speaker install.

I think you'd like Atmos. It does add a nice element to the sound, but I totally understand the "too many speakers" issue. I'll have 4 subs once I get time to finish the last two which brings me up to 15 speakers including subs. Granted my room is very similar in size to yours, but I've got attic above and behind so install is simple for me. That and my speakers are in-wall/ceiling with the exception of my subs due to my smaller room dimensions.

 

[PENG]

Hmm so what subs do you use with the Focal towers? Must be nice to have so many choices!

Zero, they don't need one in that room. All the subs are for the 7 channel HT setup.

 

[PENG]

That explains it. Did you get the 4400 from BB or Gibbys? (My local BB never had it in stock.) Please become extremely proficient on the 4400 and the App as I'll need an expert soon.

Prepare yourself for the "separates" sound.

I am having hard time understanding how that little 25 lbs 3400 can sound so good, then start searching for measurements for possible reasons. All I could gather so far are just the Audiohlics.com, S&V and Audiovision (German) measurements for the 3300, 4200 and 4400 (Audiovision/German). The most telling ones are probably the S&V and AH's output vs THD. I can't find any measurements for the X3400H/X4400H except that German one, but that one only provided power output measurements and the subjective blurbs that I am not too keen on. The X3400H and X4400H do have the AK4458, maybe that's the reason.

You can see the very respectable THD+N vs Output performance in the AH (for the X3300H) and S&V (for the X4200W) graphs.

https://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/denon-avr-x3300w-1/measurements

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-x4200w-av-receiver-review-test-bench

Compare that to the more powerful RX-A2070:

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/yamaha-aventage-rx-a2070-av-receiver-review-test-bench

The Denon appeared to have lower distortions at lower output levels.

 

[PENG]

I just noticed the S&V graph shows the 3400 has better distortion than the 4200 right up to about 115 W, that means it is possible that the 4400's may be a little better, or at least equal, but you never know..

It seems to indicate that Denon may be focussing more on quality than quantity in their recent lower mid range receiver models.

As usual, S&V's are based on 1 kHz, but over the 20-20,000 Hz range it shouldn't vary too much except in the extreme low and high ends of the frequency limits based on data I have seen on AVtech (much older models only).

 

[KEW]

I am having hard time understanding how that little 25 lbs 3400 can sound so good, then start searching for measurements for possible reasons. All I could gather so far are just the Audiohlics.com, S&V and Audiovision (German) measurements for the 3300, 4200 and 4400 (Audiovision/German). The most telling ones are probably the S&V and AH's output vs THD. I can't find any measurements for the X3400H/X4400H except that German one, but that one only provided power output measurements and the subjective blurbs that I am not too keen on. The X3400H and X4400H do have the AK4458, maybe that's the reason.

I was thinking it was a RoomEQ improvement from the use of the app along with XT32.
It doesn't seem like improving the distortion from 0.01% (even if you totally eliminated it) would yield an audible benefit.
Are you saying that this may reflect a trend and there may be other improvements which are audible?