Using the affordable AVR-X3400H for Two Channel Stereo

P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
First, let's consider the $/watt. The AVR-X3400H is currently on sale for C$799.99 at bestbuy.ca or US$799.98 at bestbuy.com. CAD to USD today is 0.75, that means for the first time (?) this deal is 25% better North of the border. There is another place selling it for $749, so after price match, I got it from BB for C$744, or US$560.

According to S&V's measurements, from CD input to speaker output with two channel driving 8-ohm loads, reaches about (just below) 0.006% at 95 watts or 0.009% at 100 watts. I know for the "continuous full power bandwidth" test the numbers would drop, that's why instead of using 0.1% for clean watt, I leave it at 0.01% instead.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-x3400h-av-receiver-review-test-bench

The S&V measurements seems consistent with Gene's measurements on the AVR-X3300W that most likely have the same basic preamp and amp sections.

https://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/denon-avr-x3300w-1/measurements

So that's about US$5.6 per 1 clean watt.

The Halo A51 on the S&V bench reached about 0.01% at 240 watts, I assume one can get an A21, the two channel version for about US$2,000.

So that's US$8.33 per 1 clean watt, but that's just the power amp. Matching it with a decent preamp will likely bring the $/watt to at least double that of the AVR-X3400H.

I have done hours of listening, comparing the X3400H to my Cambridge Audio 840E/Parasound halo A21 separates. I could hardly hear a difference in sound quality through the LS50, using high resolution digital files of recordings that I know are of very high quality. The speakers are most likely the bottleneck, but I highly doubt the two setups could sound different enough for most people to pass any properly done blind tests even if higher resolution speakers like the B&W 800 diamonds or Revel Salon 2 are used.

If one has a room that is far from perfect acoustically (such as mine),the AVR has an edge, because XT32 Sub EQ easily improved the bass response for my LS50+Rythmik sub setup. Before that, I had to spend many hours using minidsp, the sub's PEQ and multiple times of sub crawling, to get similar results that Audyssey manage to get in less than 15 minutes. The difference with Audyssey on and off is so obvious that I suspect even a kid can tell which one is better.

This is the quantitative/objective part. It is getting late in the day, so the qualitative part will be for tomorrow.

Edit: I changed the title because it is simply a quick review of this lower mid range 7.1 receiver, and potentially use it in a two channel system. It is not meant to be a replacement of a two piece pre/power amplifier system.
 

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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Where's @Pogre these days? Before I spend C$27 on the MultEQ Auditor App I want to know if I should go with the ios or Android version. He probably knows which one comes with fewer and or friendly bugs.

I think I should be able to improve that dip further using the Rythmik's parametric EQ, and I doubt Audyssey can do more. It will be fun to use the App to see what's going on though. Too bad I don't have a small display monitor for the stereo systems.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
You have a conclusion/take-home message yet?

Does Audyssey seem to work as well as miniDSP?

Do the FR plots for the Denon AVR-X3400H Receiver look identical to the Separates Preamp?
 
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Pogre had a Marantz (6011, so a bit older as well), don't know if that's a significant difference for the app consideration. He also said his new business is up and running and was starting to get busier....
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
You a conclusion/take-home message yet?
It may be too early to say anything conclusive, but so far I am impressed by its performance in that set up. By the way, you have been right all along, and I totally agree with you now, that if one only needs 2 to 7 channels, there is no need to pay extra dollars for the much more expensive X4400H, especially if it is used as a prepro.

Does Audyssey seem to work as well as miniDSP?
Absolutely, I would say better, you can see in the comparison graphs I posted. The black curve was Audyssey, first attempt, using 6 positions, with the sub's PEQ off, phase at 0, XO at maximum; and no sub crawling at all and without fine tuning with the editor app. The graph looks as good or better than the one for using REW with the minidsp, plus the laborious effort of subwoofer crawling.

Do the FR plots for the Denon AVR-X3400H Receiver look identical to the Separates Preamp?
Using 1/12 smoothing, the two curves sort of look like one for the most part, virtually identical.

I know you won't care about the subjective part of my review. So, suffice to say that I've tried very hard to listen for the presumed harshness, brightness etc., that audiophiles might expect from an AVR. Surprisingly, or not, I am hearing the same smooth and neutral sound that I hear from the separates, be it violin, percussion, brass, or even pianos. My reference is always live music.

I am going to spend many more hours listening to music that I am very familiar with, before I decide on using it in the HT room or not . Either way, I will likely keep the AV8801, now that I know Audyssey is able to tame those big bumps in the lower mid range. It also managed to improve the nasty dip at around 85 Hz to an acceptable level. Regardless of those graphs, the bottom line is, I have never heard the LS50 sounding that good until now.
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
It may be too early to say anything conclusive, but so far I am impressed by its performance in that set up. By the way, you have been right all along, and I totally agree with you now, that if one only needs 2 to 7 channels, there is no need to pay extra dollars for the much more expensive X4400H, especially if it is used as a prepro.



Absolutely, I would say better, you can see in the comparison graphs I posted. The black curve was Audyssey, first attempt, using 6 positions, with the sub's PEQ off, phase at 0, XO at maximum; and no sub crawling at all and without fine tuning with the editor app. The graph looks as good or better than the one for using REW with the minidsp, plus the laborious effect of subwoofer crawling.



Using 1/12 smoothing, the two curves sort of look like one for the most part, virtually identical.

I know you won't care about the subjective part of my review. So, suffice to say that I've tried very hard to listen for the presumed harshness, brightness etc., that audiophiles might expect from an AVR. Surprisingly, or not, I am hearing the same smooth and neutral sound that I hear from the separates, be it violin, percussion, brass, or even pianos. My reference is always live music.

I am going to spend many more hours listening to music that I am very familiar with, before I decide on using it in the HT room or not . Either way, I will likely keep the AV8801, now that I know Audyssey is able to tame those big bumps in the lower mid range. It also managed to improve the nasty dip at around 85 Hz to an acceptable level. Regardless of those graphs, the bottom line is, I have never heard the LS50 sounding that good until now.
I care about both of your subjective and objective sections. :D

From my subjective comparisons and impressions, I definitely think the Denon X3000-series deserves to be AVR/AVP of the year for its price and performance.

For pure 2Ch, the X3400's FR is as linear and accurate as humanly (audibly) perceived = 20Hz-20kHz @ -0.0dB/+0.1dB.

For EQ, the X3400 has the flagship Audyssey XT32 and Sub EQ found in $7,000 AVPs (Denon AVP-A1HDCI and McIntosh MX122) that performs as well or better than miniDSP.

And since it's not as expensive as other units, hopefully Denon didn't horseshoe too many parts in the chassis. :D
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I am going to try the digital input today. For those interested in my subjective impression (will keep to minimum), stay tuned.

So anyone considering using a <<$1K last year model 7.1 AVR for stereo use, instead an integrated amp that likely cost more and offers less?
 
Out-Of-Phase

Out-Of-Phase

Audioholic General
I care about both of your subjective and objective sections. :D

From my subjective comparisons and impressions, I definitely think the Denon X3000-series deserves to be AVR/AVP of the year for its price and performance.

For pure 2Ch, the X3400's FR is as linear and accurate as humanly (audibly) perceived = 20Hz-20kHz @ -0.0dB/+0.1dB.

For EQ, the X3400 has the flagship Audyssey XT32 and Sub EQ found in $7,000 AVPs (Denon AVP-A1HDCI and McIntosh MX122) that performs as well or better than miniDSP.

And since it's not as expensive as other units, hopefully Denon didn't horseshoe too many parts in the chassis. :D
I’d like to add that the AVR-X4400H (the model I own) has a wonderful MM phono amp that sounds as good as any overpriced separate amp out there.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I’d like to add that the AVR-X4400H (the model I own) has a wonderful MM phono amp that sounds as good as any overpriced separate amp out there.
I have been recommeding the x4000 series since the x4200w while all the time HD and ADTG recommended the x3000 series.

If the x4400h drops to $799 or even $899 next Jan, I may get one to replace the 3400. The 3400 will then replace the av8801 in the LS50 system and the AV8801 will be sold for whatever I can get.

So far I really like the sound quality. No doubt in my mind the North American talks of a warmer/musical sound are only visible but not audible.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Easy to recommend the Denon X3000 and X4000 series because they often go on sale.

The Yamaha RX1000 series is the equivalent to the X3000, but I hardly see the Yamaha on sale.

I think Audyssey XT32 may have the edge over YPAO for Room EQ.

But YPAO Volume seems to sound every bit as good as DEQ to me. Good thing for me I just like YPAO Volume and DEQ and Bypass Room EQ.

AFAIK Dirac doesn’t have DEQ and Dolby Volume (Anthem) is too mild and subtle for my taste because I just don’t feel much bass boost.

Like right now I’m listening to “Last of the Mohicans” soundtrack- Theme Song and The Kiss- and the bass is tremendous and awesome. The Dynamic Range is just awesome and sounds like a live symphony. :D
 
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Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Where's @Pogre these days? Before I spend C$27 on the MultEQ Auditor App I want to know if I should go with the ios or Android version. He probably knows which one comes with fewer and or friendly bugs.

I think I should be able to improve that dip further using the Rythmik's parametric EQ, and I doubt Audyssey can do more. It will be fun to use the App to see what's going on though. Too bad I don't have a small display monitor for the stereo systems.
You know, I had the android version and could never get it to work right. I ended up getting my money back, but there are more factors than just the app. I suspect it just didn't play well with my receiver and there are probably a couple other models that do the same.

I thought maybe it was only unique to me, but when I talked to cs they implied that I'm not the only one. No solution they offered worked for me so I gave up.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Pogre had a Marantz (6011, so a bit older as well),don't know if that's a significant difference for the app consideration. He also said his new business is up and running and was starting to get busier....
When it rains it pours. Slowed down a little the last week.

I replied to PENG with my thoughts on it. They may have done some tweaking since I last tried to make it work.

As far as using an AVR for music only, I love my SR6011. I have a Monolith 7 in the mix, but when I fried it it and went without for 3 weeks I used the power supply of my 6011 for everything and didn't notice any change I could detect as far as sq.

The big amp makes things seem more stable at higher volumes, but as far as sq at "normal" volumes I can't tell the difference. If I had a choice between one or the other I'd go with a good AVR. If you want and can afford both, by all means go for it.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
When it rains it pours. Slowed down a little the last week.

I replied to PENG with my thoughts on it. They may have done some tweaking since I last tried to make it work.

As far as using an AVR for music only, I love my SR6011. I have a Monolith 7 in the mix, but when I fried it it and went without for 3 weeks I used the power supply of my 6011 for everything and didn't notice any change I could detect as far as sq.

The big amp makes things seem more stable at higher volumes, but as far as sq at "normal" volumes I can't tell the difference. If I had a choice between one or the other I'd go with a good AVR. If you want and can afford both, by all means go for it.
Yeah with my avrs' amps vs external amps with those avrs that's my general take away as well. Since I'm avoiding higher volumes, haven't been missing the amps on the mains. Glad to hear you are busy enough not to waste time here :p
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I have been recommeding the x4000 series since the x4200w while all the time HD and ADTG recommended the x3000 series.

If the x4400h drops to $799 or even $899 next Jan, I may get one to replace the 3400. The 3400 will then replace the av8801 in the LS50 system and the AV8801 will be sold for whatever I can get.

So far I really like the sound quality. No doubt in my mind the North American talks of a warmer/musical sound are only visible but not audible.
I believe the 3300 was the first 3000 series to have xt32. Once that happened, the only significant advantage of the 4400 was if you needed 9 channels of amplification, IMHO.

On another topic, how is the app working? Have you tried it on your Nexus 6P? I have a Nexus 6, so there is a good chance I would have a similar experience to yours!
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I believe the 3300 was the first 3000 series to have xt32. Once that happened, the only significant advantage of the 4400 was if you needed 9 channels of amplification, IMHO.

On another topic, how is the app working? Have you tried it on your Nexus 6P? I have a Nexus 6, so there is a good chance I would have a similar experience to yours!
I like the 3400 more than the 3300 because of the better DAC (for psychological reasons only:D) and eARC. There are some additional video features that I won't benefit from. I still prefer the 4400, mainly because of the 11 channel processing as i don't need the internal amps. The 3400 has so far impressed me enough that I do plan on getting the 4400 if when the price drops enough, so that I can get rid of the 8801 that's just too big and heavy for use in the LS50 based stereo system.

I have not tried it on my Neus 6P, just the Tab S2 for now because I prefer the much larger screen. I will try the N6P soon and report back my findings. The App works great, as long as wifi signal is strong. There are some minor issues but those probably wouldn't matter for most people. Even the $1,500 iPhone X has issues right..
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I just tried the App on the N6P, it worked perfectly!! The tablet's larger screen is better for editing the curve though. Even without any editing, using 6 or 8 (better) positions, I can get easily within 5-7 dB total swing, i.e. peak to peak, 15-115 Hz. There is a big dip at around 125-150 Hz so 15-200 Hz the peak-peak swing is about 10 dB, 1/12 smoothing.

The editor could reduce the dips somewhat, but to really get it back to within 6 dB I would have to crawl the sub and play with the phasing knob on the E15HP. XT32 supposedly has over 10,000 filters, but we all know how hard it is to deal with room mode related dips. I really have no use for the minidsp now. It has been back in the box since months ago, probably has less than 16 hours total on it.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
I just tried the App on the N6P, it worked perfectly!! The tablet's larger screen is better for editing the curve though. Even without any editing, using 6 or 8 (better) positions, I can get easily within 5-7 dB total swing, i.e. peak to peak, 15-115 Hz. There is a big dip at around 125-150 Hz so 15-200 Hz the peak-peak swing is about 10 dB, 1/12 smoothing.

The editor could reduce the dips somewhat, but to really get it back to within 6 dB I would have to crawl the sub and play with the phasing knob on the E15HP. XT32 supposedly has over 10,000 filters, but we all know how hard it is to deal with room mode related dips. I really have no use for the minidsp now. It has been back in the box since months ago, probably has less than 16 hours total on it.
I've got a room mode at 40hz according to REW room tool and I can hear it especially strong on Pink Floyd's "Welcome to the Machine". The initial tone must be close to 40hz because it's almost inaudible at the listening position. In front of or behind it's very loud. Once I get my other two subs in the back of the room that should be corrected.

I have a tabs 2 that I can try so maybe I'll get a chance to do that this weekend. I'm hoping that the app will show this room mode. I typically use 8 mic positions so that should be plenty to show the mode. I'll find out.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I've got a room mode at 40hz according to REW room tool and I can hear it especially strong on Pink Floyd's "Welcome to the Machine". The initial tone must be close to 40hz because it's almost inaudible at the listening position. In front of or behind it's very loud. Once I get my other two subs in the back of the room that should be corrected.

I have a tabs 2 that I can try so maybe I'll get a chance to do that this weekend. I'm hoping that the app will show this room mode. I typically use 8 mic positions so that should be plenty to show the mode. I'll find out.
In my experience, you may be able to improve such dip by 1-2 dB without messing up something else, it seems like a waste of time. You may be able to get more improvements by crawling the speakers and the sub first; and once you get them to do their best in acceptable positions (like not in the middle of the room),re-run Audyssey to finish the job. To do that you need REW or equivalent.
 
-Jim-

-Jim-

Audioholic General
Hi Gents,

As some of you know, I too am on the verge of buying a Denon AVR-X4400H. I can get a new one for $1100 CAN Plus shipping today, but hope to see it for $1000 this weekend (Canada Day Sale!) with free shipping. If so I'm going to jump on it. If not, I'll try to be patient like PENG. My rational is to use the savings between the 4400 & 6400 to buy three HSU CCB-8s to replace my aged front speakers. (My Misses said I could buy the 6400 for my Birthday present some months ago...)

I am keen on any experiences with the App on IOS as I want to keep at least two "profiles" as the 4400 won't drive all 11 speakers on it's own. And at least initially, I'll hold off on a separate Amp for the rear Atmos, or 7.1 rear speakers.

I'm also concerned about Dolby's announcement they will push their OEMs to stop allowing upmixing using their proprietary codecs and other sources. I was hoping to try simulations with various inputs, soundtracks, etc.

I'm glad to hear posters who think the flagship Audyssey XT32 and Sub EQ is a killer on the 3400; so it must be the same on the 4400. I have a REW on a Laptop and a UMIK-1 USB Mic for it but I'm really not too proficient. I was thinking I'd get proficient after all the changes I'm making, and start tweaking the system. But if Audyssey XT32 and Sub EQ are really Killers, then I can use them and learn to get proficient on REW at a "relaxed" pace.
 

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