"Ceramic" tweeter - Canton Vento 820.2 vs Paradigm S2

KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
DR;TL skip to Highs!

I bought a pair of Canton Vento 820.2 bookshelf speakers some months ago.
I got these at the Black Friday rate of $640 (in white) and was very happy with them. They are now $900/pr minus a 10% discount through the end of June=$810/pr.
At the time, I compared them to RBH 61lse, which they readily beat, and the Focal Solo6 Be's, which they did not beat, but did do some things better!
My comments on those comparisons are in this post:
https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/canton-vento-820-2-2-way-6in-bookshelf-speaker.109838/#post-1224852

At the end, I mentioned comparison with the Paradign S2 as a logical next step in kind of establishing their place. I had mostly forgotten about this until I was recently asked how they compared to the SVS Ultra. I do not have the Ultras to perform a direct comparison; but for me, the Ultras outperformed the RBH 61lse, with the Paradigm S-2 proving itself better than the Ultra. You can read about the comparisons made by Alex (TheWarrior) here:
https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/bookshelf-speaker-shootout.95335/
Further up the ladder, the SVS Ultra and RBH 61 LSE really duked it out to win my favor. Each provided its own pleasing experience that left me constantly changing my preference with each new listening track. Sparkling, airy highs of the Ultra versus the sweet, seductive clarity of that completely non-fatiguing 61 LSE tweeter. They each have their strengths, and it genuinely comes down to which track was being listened to.
My subjective quick and dirty on this is the Ultra has better highs, and the 61lse is King of mid-range detail (everything I have heard from RBH has always had wonderful midrange and the 61lse is the top model I have heard!). The Vento's mid-range detail matched or bettered the 61lse for mid-range.

I was very impressed that the Vento did a better job than the Focal Solo6Be with the harmonic signature of symphonic chimes as well as aggressively played trombone as these are two sounds I have learned the Beryllium tweeter to readily beat any Aluminum tweeter. My understanding is the Canton ceramic tweeter is aluminum magnesium alloy with a ceramic coating (presumably a spin-off of technology we have seen with ceramic on aluminum non-stick cookware!:cool:)

I have been listening to the Vento recently and am always impressed with the clarity of struck metal (cymbals, chimes, triangles). However, all I can say is it is very good (and better than any soft-dome I have heard) without the benefit of another speaker to compare directly!

My Focals had beat the Vento, but today I pulled out my Paradigm S-2's to see if the Ventos could hold their own in any aspects:

I listened to Lyle Lovett; Earth, Wind, and Fire; Sade; Fairfield Four, and Brandenberg Concertos.

Bass - The Canton is very good for a 6" driver and beat the 6.5" RBH, especially noteworthy if you saw how small they are (just a smidgen larger than my EMPtek 41B). However, the S2 have tremendous bass for a bookshelf. There was no contest for depth, the S2 have it. I felt like the S2 have a little bit extra bass and treble for a very subtle smile FR. In any content with solid bass, this aspect of the S2 sounded richer and fuller. The Vento impresses me as neutral, but simply not extending so deep and strong as the S2. There are many places where the Bass for Sade punches notes and I was surprised the Canton held its own. Same for Earth, Wind, and Fire. However, ultimately, there was an absence of the sense of space and fullness that comes with the deeper bass of the S2.

Mid-range - The Ventos were better at all vocals with one exception! For some reason when Sade had reverb on her voice, the S2 sounded better. I can only guess at the reason for this and maybe it had to do with some bass feature of the reverb giving her voice an enhanced fullness. However I have to give the nod to the Vento since it was better with "natural" voices. The Fairfield Four is a male vocal quartet that sings gospel. Someone here recommended it as a good audition CD (thanks!) and it is a high quality recording including some of the deepest vocals I have ever heard. I was surprised that the extra bass of the S2 didn't win in these sections, but it didn't. For strings, the Cantons caught the character of the bows/resin digging into the strings at the start of notes better than the S-2's. I guess it should be no surprise that the Canton mid-range bettered the S2's; I consider the S2 and the RBH 61lse mid-range very competitive and since the Vento betters the 61lse, it should better the S2!

Highs - This is where things got interesting! In general, the highs sounded pretty much the same, but I have learned to use certain sounds to separate the Be from the Al!:) Striking metal is the most revealing, so I was listening closely to high frequency taps and on the Cantons heard what at first sounded like a triangle but I wasn't quite sure and had to go back and play that section over several times on both speakers to learn what was going on! It was indeed a triangle, but I was listening on the Vento and it positively shimmered - the combination of a high quality triangle (most are) with a good strike and a great tweeter that I have not heard done quite this well before! I don't use a triangle for discrimination between speakers because I normally think of it as a pretty thin sound (it is the rich harmonics of symphonic chimes that I am used to revealing differences),yet there it was! What am I talking about? I call it shimmer, but I am pretty sure it is the sound made as the vibrations from impact travel around the triangle to the ends and bounce back down the other way, colliding from both ends as the sound decays! It sounded like a live triangle, but I had never really noticed how the detail of this was typically missing from play-back. Since I was now listening for it, the S2 was doing it, but not so well as the Vento!

So my thought and the main reason I am making this a stand-alone post titled as it is is because I think this may be the next great thing in tweeters. If it can equal or better the Be tweeter without the high cost (which is partly due to the safety measures required to process Be). My only real reservation is life often gives us compromises and it may be that while this tweeter excels at the things I focused on, there might be some disadvantaged aspect which did or would not catch my attention.
 
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TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
Ceramic domes are not new, but perhaps, one that can perform really well, is!

That said, who doesn't love a good triangle performance!?

 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
Great write up! :) I wonder how often A4L does sales. I also wonder in a home theater setup (80% HT use) if a sub should crossover at the avr to a bookshelf at 80hz vs to a tower at 40hz vs running a tower at full range. Also if 3 identical books with a great sub is ideal, buying 4 speakers is a bit of a waste. (SVS Ultra and Revel M16 are available in singles for example). I will experiment with my other bookshelves in the HT room a bit.
A lot to think about and I think I will for a bit because I can’t afford to mess up this purchase. Also I believe I will be on the fence until I hear the Phils or Ascend books with the RAAL... Thanks! :)
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
@KEW
Seems similar to the Infinity CMMD technology to me. And, of course those have been praised for a long time too.
 
TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
@KEW
Seems similar to the Infinity CMMD technology to me. And, of course those have been praised for a long time too.
It's interesting, Canton doesn't seem to share much about that tweeter.

The Infinity version is what Floyd Toole used to use as they didn't have a break up resonance until above 30 khz. The ceramic layers served to dampen the inherent resonance of the aluminum diaphragm.

CMMD placed the aluminum layer between two layers of ceramic, but, and it's hard to tell, the Canton variant may sandwich titanium between ceramic layers. Perhaps there was a patent used by Harman, that required Canton to create an opposite design?
 
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slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
It's interesting, Canton doesn't seem to share much about that tweeter.

The Infinity version is what Floyd Toole used to use as they didn't have a break up resonance until above 30 khz. The ceramic layer served to dampen the inherent resonance of the aluminum diaphragm.

CMMD placed the ceramic layer between two aluminum layers, but, and it's hard to tell, the Canton variant may sandwich titanium between ceramic layers. Perhaps there was a patent used by Harman, that required Canton to create an opposite design?
I wasn't aware of the other info that you provided, but by the time I got down to your last sentence here, I was thinking the same thing, "a way to side-step existing patents".

Regardless, this type of approach for driver material seems to have several benefits for a reasonable price.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Great write up! :) I wonder how often A4L does sales. I also wonder in a home theater setup (80% HT use) if a sub should crossover at the avr to a bookshelf at 80hz vs to a tower at 40hz vs running a tower at full range. Also if 3 identical books with a great sub is ideal, buying 4 speakers is a bit of a waste. (SVS Ultra and Revel M16 are available in singles for example). I will experiment with my other bookshelves in the HT room a bit.
A lot to think about and I think I will for a bit because I can’t afford to mess up this purchase. Also I believe I will be on the fence until I hear the Phils or Ascend books with the RAAL... Thanks! :)
It is a long shot, but you might call A4L and ask about keeping a look out for a single speaker. They may have policies against it, but I have to believe, every now and then, one speaker might get damaged in shipping and they are left with an unmatched pair. It wouldn't hurt to ask!
 
Kvn_Walker

Kvn_Walker

Audioholic Field Marshall
I have to say that for a brand I had never heard of a month ago, Canton really has impressed me. My GLE 's don't have the ceramic tweeter but the highs are still nice and everything you said about the midrange rings true.

To me the 496's seem a bit weak for bass even with two "eight" inch woofers (maybe a bit of a marketing stretch since the cabinet width is exactly 8 inches), but the cabinet size probably is the biggest factor there. Overall their sound greatly exceeds their price point though.
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
I have to say that for a brand I had never heard of a month ago, Canton really has impressed me. My GLE 's don't have the ceramic tweeter but the highs are still nice and everything you said about the midrange rings true.

To me the 496's seem a bit weak for bass even with two "eight" inch woofers (maybe a bit of a marketing stretch since the cabinet width is exactly 8 inches), but the cabinet size probably is the biggest factor there. Overall their sound greatly exceeds their price point though.
Did you happen to pair with a canton center? Or is this a 2.1 setup?
 
Kvn_Walker

Kvn_Walker

Audioholic Field Marshall
2.0 setup. I'm leaning towards selling everything else in the house (5-channel KEF in the living room, plus a pair of no-longer-used Klipsch KLF10's) and moving the Canton's into the living room and pairing them with a sub for movies. Heck, surround sound has been disconnected since fall of last year when my best half painted the living room, and nobody but me has even noticed...

For 2.0 I am probably going to import a pair of Mission QX-5's from Britain. It's a gamble on something that doesn't even have a single professional review yet, but the QX-2's (bookshelf) have reviewed favorably, and the side-firing 12's should fill my prescription for low end.

I know dual 6.5's and dual 8's are all the rage these days (it's what I get for not buying speakers for a dozen years), but if the GLE's had the kind of bass that the KLF's do, they would be darn near the perfect speaker (for me anyway).
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
2.0 setup. I'm leaning towards selling everything else in the house (5-channel KEF in the living room, plus a pair of no-longer-used Klipsch KLF10's) and moving the Canton's into the living room and pairing them with a sub for movies. Heck, surround sound has been disconnected since fall of last year when my best half painted the living room, and nobody but me has even noticed...

For 2.0 I am probably going to import a pair of Mission QX-5's from Britain. It's a gamble on something that doesn't even have a single professional review yet, but the QX-2's (bookshelf) have reviewed favorably, and the side-firing 12's should fill my prescription for low end.

I know dual 6.5's and dual 8's are all the rage these days (it's what I get for not buying speakers for a dozen years), but if the GLE's had the kind of bass that the KLF's do, they would be darn near the perfect speaker (for me anyway).
I went the other direction. I have the perfect sub for my 2600 cu ft theater room (Rythmik LVX12) but now am shopping for the speakers to go with it. Well at least the front 3 at first. But I can wait for the Black Friday deals if I have to. Also curious about what the updated KEF R series will be like (think is this fall?)
 
Darenwh

Darenwh

Audioholic
I will say that the four Canton Plus X.2's I picked up with the Cantamounts at an estate sale for $20 (total, not each) seem to have been a great buy.... Love them.
 
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KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
It's a gamble on something that doesn't even have a single professional review yet, but the QX-2's (bookshelf) have reviewed favorably, and the side-firing 12's should fill my prescription for low end.
Can you link that review? I did not see it!
 
ematthews

ematthews

Audioholic General
I picked up a pair of the Canto Vento Reference 9.2 DC Book shelves from A4L. 10% off this month brought a set of 4000 MSRP speakers down to 1400 on sale. Hooked them up and what impressed me the most was the full sound of these. The tweeter is on the bright side. Almost harsh IMO. I just wonder if it will smooth out over time. A4L has returns but at a 10% restock which would kill the additional discount I got. I am gonna run them in some more to see what they do.
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
I picked up a pair of the Canto Vento Reference 9.2 DC Book shelves from A4L. 10% off this month brought a set of 4000 MSRP speakers down to 1400 on sale. Hooked them up and what impressed me the most was the full sound of these. The tweeter is on the bright side. Almost harsh IMO. I just wonder if it will smooth out over time. A4L has returns but at a 10% restock which would kill the additional discount I got. I am gonna run them in some more to see what they do.
Revels still going strong? Did you compare the Canton books against the Revel tower tweeter?
 
ematthews

ematthews

Audioholic General
I have a faulty tweeter in the Revels. The Revels are better in the upper end. Although the Cantons only have about an hour on them. If they calm down a bit they will be great!! I however did NOT like my Kef LS50 at all during break in. Then bam. Something happened and they sound great. Anyways the Revels have to be replaced. Not sure if I should keep them or go for my original first choice. Dynaudio’s.
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
I have a faulty tweeter in the Revels. The Revels are better in the upper end. Although the Cantons only have about an hour on them. If they calm down a bit they will be great!! I however did NOT like my Kef LS50 at all during break in. Then bam. Something happened and they sound great. Anyways the Revels have to be replaced. Not sure if I should keep them or go for my original first choice. Dynaudio’s.
That sucks. Did you also look at Focal towers? I decided to hold off a bit on my theater speakers once I got a hint of what 2 subs would be like...might go that route first.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I picked up a pair of the Canto Vento Reference 9.2 DC Book shelves from A4L. 10% off this month brought a set of 4000 MSRP speakers down to 1400 on sale. Hooked them up and what impressed me the most was the full sound of these. The tweeter is on the bright side. Almost harsh IMO. I just wonder if it will smooth out over time. A4L has returns but at a 10% restock which would kill the additional discount I got. I am gonna run them in some more to see what they do.
Sorry, man, I tried to warn you!
https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/canton-a45-45th-anniversary-limited-edition-speaker.111492/#post-1252497
 
ematthews

ematthews

Audioholic General
Don’t be sorry. It’s a great speaker. I’ve benndoing some comparisons to other speakers in my house and when I go back to these I’m more impressed. I didn’t like my Kef LS 50 at all when I first got them. Now I love them.
 

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