The SEPARATES vs. AVR Thread

[M Code]

Lets kleer the air about electrolytic capacitors..
Firstly, the better quality capacitors are from Japanese manufacturers and/or their sister factories in Vietnam, China, Malaysia. Secondly, there is no such thing as a medical grade capacitors, the best and longest lasting electrolytic capacitors have a higher, temperature rating at 105 degrees C, compared to a standard grade electrolytic capacitors of 65 or 85 degrees C. However the cost-up for an electrolytic capacitor rated @ 65 degrees vs 105 degrees is about 55%. And for the majority of consumer goods with a projected product life cycle of about 10 years 65 or 85 degree capacitors are typically used. The other factors concerning the life of an electrolytic capacitors is how long it is stored in a distributor's inventory and the average humidity of the target product. Unfortunately, today's CE products for the most part are designed to meet a very competitive price point, so there is very little over build of its components. PCBs are cramped into tighter packages, built with overclocked CPUs, video, audio connectivity processors... Todays CE products are built to be replaced not repaired, while often being obsolete with older technologies....

Just my $0.02..

 

[3db]

Lets kleer the air about electrolytic capacitors..
Firstly, the better quality capacitors are from Japanese manufacturers and/or their sister factories in Vietnam, China, Malaysia. Secondly, there is no such thing as a medical grade capacitors, the best and longest lasting electrolytic capacitors have a higher, temperature rating at 105 degrees C, compared to a standard grade electrolytic capacitors of 65 or 85 degrees C. However the cost-up for an electrolytic capacitor rated @ 65 degrees vs 105 degrees is about 55%. And for the majority of consumer goods with a projected product life cycle of about 10 years 65 or 85 degree capacitors are typically used. The other factors concerning the life of an electrolytic capacitors is how long it is stored in a distributor's inventory and the average humidity of the target product. Unfortunately, today's CE products for the most part are designed to meet a very competitive price point, so there is very little over build of its components. PCBs are cramped into tighter packages, built with overclocked CPUs, video, audio connectivity processors... Todays CE products are built to be replaced not repaired, while often being obsolete with older technologies....

Just my $0.02..

There are also MIL-SPEC components but again, its only a paper trail and screening trial where the components are screened via temperature testing from a production lot. The process to build MIL-SPEC components is all paper trailed to death. All that paper work sharply increases the price of the components.

 

[Mikado463]

Lets kleer the air about electrolytic capacitors..
Todays CE products are built to be replaced not repaired, while often being obsolete with older technologies....

perhaps with the low to mid-fi products but most high end gear is very 'repairable' and sounds wonderful. having recently listened to a Threshold S300 amp(re-capped) from the eighties I can attest !

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

perhaps with the low to mid-fi products but most high end gear is very 'repairable' and sounds wonderful. having recently listened to a Threshold S300 amp(re-capped) from the eighties I can attest !

I think analog amps and preamps are very repairable.

But have you seen the inside of the 60LB Denon AVP-A1HDCI Pre-pro?

It has layers and layers of PC boards atop PC boards and all kinds of circuits up to no good.

 

[M Code]

High-end component preamps and amplifiers are only 5% of the market, so yes they can be repaired..
But at what cost, bench labor rates average $100/hour plus finding the correct parts...
I just restored a Marantz turntable, cost was <$50 in parts and 2 hours of my labor, end-value today is $1500...
Later CE products have more ICs often no longer available, and the majority of resistors & capacitors are surface mount... Plus today fewer audio brands have available adequate spare parts, products are either too old and/or the cost of carrying spare parts is too expensive.

Just my $0.02...

 

[Mikado463]

High-end component preamps and amplifiers are only 5% of the market, so yes they can be repaired..
But at what cost, bench labor rates average $100/hour plus finding the correct parts...
I just restored a Marantz turntable, cost was <$50 in parts and 2 hours of my labor, end-value today is $1500...
Later CE products have more ICs often no longer available, and the majority of resistors & capacitors are surface mount... Plus today fewer audio brands have available adequate spare parts, products are either too old and/or the cost of carrying spare parts is too expensive.

Just my $0.02...

again, I hear you and tend to agree but for that '5%' (ARC for example) it's good to know they are there !

 

[Irvrobinson]

"The Benchmark units have no power switch, so they're intended to be cooking 24/7 too."

Reminds me of my old Classé preamp that had no power switch on it at all. Idiocy.

The manufacturer claimed it had to be left on all the time for better sound. Give me a break.

I don't think that's Benchmark's argument. I have the earliest model, the DAC1, and it consumes 8 watts, which was considered trivial back then. The later models apparently have an auto standby circuit that takes them to 0.5 watt, but they use 50% more power when operating, and the new energy efficiency standards come into play.

 

[panteragstk]

Lets kleer the air about electrolytic capacitors..
Firstly, the better quality capacitors are from Japanese manufacturers and/or their sister factories in Vietnam, China, Malaysia. Secondly, there is no such thing as a medical grade capacitors, the best and longest lasting electrolytic capacitors have a higher, temperature rating at 105 degrees C, compared to a standard grade electrolytic capacitors of 65 or 85 degrees C. However the cost-up for an electrolytic capacitor rated @ 65 degrees vs 105 degrees is about 55%. And for the majority of consumer goods with a projected product life cycle of about 10 years 65 or 85 degree capacitors are typically used. The other factors concerning the life of an electrolytic capacitors is how long it is stored in a distributor's inventory and the average humidity of the target product. Unfortunately, today's CE products for the most part are designed to meet a very competitive price point, so there is very little over build of its components. PCBs are cramped into tighter packages, built with overclocked CPUs, video, audio connectivity processors... Todays CE products are built to be replaced not repaired, while often being obsolete with older technologies....

Just my $0.02..

I corrected my 11 year old memory in the post where I quoted what the gentleman said about the quality of devices. I miss-remembered them as medical grade when in reality he was speaking of a "class a" as he put it that are used in medical equipment. Whether or not there is any truth to what he was saying is beyond my knowledge, but it did seem reasonable.

 

[sterling shoote]

I'm not the brightest bulb in the pack, but even I'm smart enough to know that electronics diagnosis over the internet is a bad idea. If caps are the problem, and I doubt it given the symptoms you describe, they can probably be replaced. Finding someone with the skill to debug the board(s) and replace the caps, especially since I suspect Sony probably used SMT to assemble the boards, might be challenging. Google would be your friend, and expect to ship it and pay hundreds for the entire process.

(The symptoms you're describing seem temperature-related. If I were dumb enough to guess, and I just said I'm not that dumb, it smells like a poorly functioning thermistor in some gain circuit. Given the age of this DAT product, it might be quite difficult to find someone qualified to repair it. So I'd just leave the thing powered up all the time. But like I said, diagnosing anything remotely is really dumb. I mean, since I don't have a schematic I don't even know if there's a thermistor in the entire device.)

Thanks for your input. I did have this recorder repaired by Sony in LA back in 2010. It was a crap shoot then but they fixed it. That service cost me $950; but, such service is no longer available today. I will likely take your advice, at least until I can find a highly qualified technician to literally look into it.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

I don't think that's Benchmark's argument. I have the earliest model, the DAC1, and it consumes 8 watts, which was considered trivial back then. The later models apparently have an auto standby circuit that takes them to 0.5 watt, but they use 50% more power when operating, and the new energy efficiency standards come into play.

I own none of their products, but I've always heard wonderful things about that company.

 

[Verdinut]

One more advantage of using external amps is that you can have an AVR's inboard power amps, when the warranty period has expired, disconnected to reduce the heat that they generate and have a better chance of benefiting of a longer life span for the AVR used as a pre-pro.

In addition, in my opinion, by the use of some well designed pro power amps with a clip limiting circuit, in the remote possibility of a failure, the speakers are more protected from damage than with most audiophile power amps. As far as I know, there is no such protection in AVR power amps either.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I own none of their products, but I've always heard wonderful things about that company.

Benchmark Media products are very nice to use, in that they have no operational faults I can find, are able to put out enough volts and current to drive my admittedly complex and power-sucking amp-sub setup, and have excellent parts and build quality. On the other hand, their pricing requires that you have more money than sense, IMO.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

Benchmark Media products are very nice to use, in that they have no operational faults I can find, are able to put out enough volts and current to drive my admittedly complex and power-sucking amp-sub setup, and have excellent parts and build quality. On the other hand, their pricing requires that you have more money than sense, IMO.

Their AHB2 power amplifier looks interesting. Doubt I could hear a difference though.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Their AHB2 power amplifier looks interesting. Doubt I could hear a difference though.

If you have golden ears, giant ears, or you are a mutant with special hearing capability. Shoot, it's possible.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think sometimes it might come down to whether you're more interested in the contents (TV shows, movies, actual sound) than the electronics. If so, then something like a $1,000 AVR with Audyssey XT32 will do great.

But if you're equally interested in both electronics and contents, then you want to spend more on the electronics.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

I think sometimes it might come down to whether you're more interested in the contents (TV shows, movies, actual sound) than the electronics. If so, then something like a $1,000 AVR with Audyssey XT32 will do great.

But if you're equally interested in both electronics and contents, then you want to spend more on the electronics.

Yes, for my needs these days, a $1000 AVR will more than suffice.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yes, for my needs these days, a $1000 AVR will more than suffice.

Yeah, I bet @PENG was asking himself a similar question when he bought his $1K Denon AVR, instead of a $2K or $4K AVP.

Does owning a flagship $4K AVP makes you feel any happier? If it does make you feel happier, than by all means, spend the money. It's only money and your happiness is more important. Life is short.

 

[PENG]

Yeah, I bet @PENG was asking himself a similar question when he bought his $1K Denon AVR, instead of a $2K or $4K AVP.

Does owning a flagship $4K AVP makes you feel any happier? If it does make you feel happier, than by all means, spend the money. It's only money and your happiness is more important. Life is short.

I can find out by comparing it with my Bryston, Halo, Cambridge Audio (preamp), Marantz SC-7/SM7, AV8801/Anthem MCA20+MM8003 etc., but that's time consuming so may take a couple of weeks. If I do, should I post the results here or start a new thread? If and when I do, I may invite someone with better ears than me too though it will most likely be sighted, but volume matched.

Honestly, regardless of whether I can hear a difference or not, I do want to own that Benchmark power amp and the Lyngdorf integrated amp because of their unique design and the light weight. I have enough lead plate reinforced amps, even with VU meters already so I can forgo the McIntosh amps.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I can find out by comparing it with my Bryston, Halo, Cambridge Audio (preamp),Marantz SC-7/SM7, AV8801/Anthem MCA20+MM8003 etc., but that's time consuming so may take a couple of weeks. If I do, should I post the results here or start a new thread? If and when I do, I may invite someone with better ears than me too though it will most likely be sighted, but volume matched.

Honestly, regardless of whether I can hear a difference or not, I do want to own that Benchmark power amp and the Lyngdorf integrated amp because of their unique design and the light weight. I have enough lead plate reinforced amps, even with VU meters already so I can forgo the McIntosh amps.

Yeah, just posting your impression here is fine if you're comparing the AVR vs the Separates.

BTW, instead of trying out the Denon X3400 AVR (which I know will sound identical to my X3100 and AVR-3312 AVRs),I am going to try out the Yamaha CX-A5100 Pre-pro.

Response from multichannel input to main output: –0.01 dB @ 20 Hz, –0.02 dB @ 20 kHz. Analog THD+N: less than 0.008% at 1 kHz w 100-millivolt input and volume control set to –3. Crosstalk w 100-mV input: –93.82 dB left to right, –94.21 dB right to left. Signal-to-noise ratio w “A” weighting: –130.92 dBrA.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/yamaha-aventage-cx-a5100-surround-processor-review-test-bench#AHKSw9gwQk5ZkjJx.99

I know @3db must be having a good laugh seeing this post!

Have to be open-minded, right?

 

[PENG]

Yeah, just posting your impression here is fine if you're comparing the AVR vs the Separates.

BTW, instead of trying out the Denon X3400 AVR (which I know will sound identical to my X3100 and AVR-3312 AVRs),I am going to try out the Yamaha CX-A5100 Pre-pro.

Response from multichannel input to main output: –0.01 dB @ 20 Hz, –0.02 dB @ 20 kHz. Analog THD+N: less than 0.008% at 1 kHz w 100-millivolt input and volume control set to –3. Crosstalk w 100-mV input: –93.82 dB left to right, –94.21 dB right to left. Signal-to-noise ratio w “A” weighting: –130.92 dBrA.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/yamaha-aventage-cx-a5100-surround-processor-review-test-bench#AHKSw9gwQk5ZkjJx.99

I know @3db must be having a good laugh seeing this post!

Have to be open-minded, right?

Okay then I'll post "just" my impressions here and if I am going to do a full review/comparison c/w REW graphs etc., then I'll do it on a new thread.

The Yamaha has impressive specs, but it won't be my choice regardless only because I want Audyssey, can't afford Dirac Live and for HT I think Audyssey is good enough, plus it is easier to set up, should be even easier with the App. Obviously that doesn't apply to you because you only use DEQ, the Yamaha has something similar so you will be happy.