The SEPARATES vs. AVR Thread

[panteragstk]

What are you thinking in terms of replacement for your old Pre-pro? Have you been searching online?

If McIntosh offered a 20YR warranty on their $7,000 MX122 Pre-pro (Audyssey XT32), I would buy it to replace my failing AVP-A1HDCI Pre-pro.

But they don't and nobody does.

So then I was thinking the Marantz AV 8802A, AV 8805, or AV 7704. Then I realized the AV 7705 should be coming out probably this September as well.

Oh yes, I also thought about the Denon X7200, X6300/6400/6500, X8500, X4400/X4500, and X3400/X3500.

Decisions, decisions...

 

[panteragstk]

Yes. For starters, spec'ing very high quality caps that are over-rated for ambient temperature would benefit amps. Caps could be pluggable, but usually aren't for cost or safety concerns. Cooling fans are a plus too. I'm not a board expert, but I suspect the military and medical equipment companies use special techniques. Switching and potentiometers could be all digital with no moving parts.

The question is whether 50% more lifespan is worth so much extra cost. I suspect not.

Back in my crazy PC modding days I had a friend that was an EE that may have worked for a medical device company. Either way he used to get what he called "medical grade" caps and replace all the "consumer grade" caps on his motherboards with the medical versions. He got some pretty crazy performance numbers after doing that.

From what I remember (this was over 10 years ago) he said that the medical grade stuff wasn't something that consumers could get, but wouldn't need as their spec was massive overkill for any consumer device anyway. Apparently the medical devices have to have VERY tight tolerances for anything that goes into their machines.

It'd be interesting to me to see what building an amp or pre/pro with these medical grade parts could do.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Back in my crazy PC modding days I had a friend that was an EE that may have worked for a medical device company. Either way he used to get what he called "medical grade" caps and replace all the "consumer grade" caps on his motherboards with the medical versions. He got some pretty crazy performance numbers after doing that.

From what I remember (this was over 10 years ago) he said that the medical grade stuff wasn't something that consumers could get, but wouldn't need as their spec was massive overkill for any consumer device anyway. Apparently the medical devices have to have VERY tight tolerances for anything that goes into their machines.

It'd be interesting to me to see what building an amp or pre/pro with these medical grade parts could do.

I don't know if it would be worth the money, but I think at least it would justify the higher cost.

It would be cool (as Kurt pointed out) if something like the PC with it's motherboard and add-on PCI cards could become the Audio-Video Processor (Bass Management, Audyssey XT32 DEQ, DTS-HD MA, TrueHD, etc.).

Then I would just need 10CH of analog amps and 6Ch of analog preamps (FR, C, FL, SR, SL, Sub). Then maybe my units might last 43 YR.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Decisions, decisions...

Definitely more fun to just buy something new.

If you could spend my money, what would you get?

 

[panteragstk]

Definitely more fun to just buy something new.

If you could spend my money, what would you get?

Well, since you aren't a room correction fan but DO like DEQ then I would say a Marantz pre/pro would be at the top of my list. The MAC you showed us would be there too, but I don't think there would be a SQ difference that would justify the cost difference. Sure it's pretty, but....

If you DID like RC then I'd opt to go outside the box and get something that had Dirac, Trinnov, ARC. Anthem seems to make VERY nice equipment.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I agree with you, but that would not answer the need for ability to process whatever new feature which is implemented almost every year nowadays.

I was thinking those Audio-Video boards (HDMI, 4K Rez, ATMOS, etc.) would be modules that could be replaced with new modules that have the future formats.

For example, say your current Audio-Video Processor only has 1080p for picture and DTS/DD for audio. To upgrade, they would just have to replace 1) the Video Module (for 4K, HDR, etc.) for $500 and 2) the Audio Module (for DTS-HD MA, ATMOS, etc.) for $500. If you didn't care for 4K and just wanted to replace the Audio Module, then it would just be $500. Just an example.

 

[panteragstk]

I was thinking those Audio-Video boards (HDMI, 4K Rez, ATMOS, etc.) would be modules that could be replaced with new modules that have the future formats.

For example, say your current Audio-Video Processor only has 1080p for picture and DTS/DD for audio. To upgrade, they would just have to replace 1) the Video Module (for 4K, HDR, etc.) for $500 and 2) the Audio Module (for DTS-HD MA, ATMOS, etc.) for $500. If you didn't care for 4K and just wanted to replace the Audio Module, then it would just be $500. Just an example.

Didn't Denon or someone else do exactly this....and then never made any modules?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Well, since you aren't a room correction fan but DO like DEQ then I would say a Marantz pre/pro would be at the top of my list. The MAC you showed us would be there too, but I don't think there would be a SQ difference that would justify the cost difference. Sure it's pretty, but....

If you DID like RC then I'd opt to go outside the box and get something that had Dirac, Trinnov, ARC. Anthem seems to make VERY nice equipment.

The rumored ATI AP16 (Dirac) has crossed my mind.

I'm trying to see if I could get "used" to the sound without Audyssey DEQ.

It's weird. A long time ago, I never used DEQ. And I must have thought it sounded just fine without DEQ all those years, right?

So I'm trying to see if there are ways I can duplicate DEQ without Audyssey.

I was also hoping that DIRAC has an equivalent to DEQ like Anthem's ARC has an "equivalent" called Dolby Leveler (not Dolby Volume since this is equivalent to Audyssey Volume).

Then the idea of getting the ATI AP16 Pre-pro would be more exciting.

 

[panteragstk]

The rumored ATI AP16 (Dirac) has crossed my mind.

I'm trying to see if I could get "used" to the sound without Audyssey DEQ.

It's weird. A long time ago, I never used DEQ. And I must have thought it sounded just fine without DEQ all those years, right?

So I'm trying to see if there are ways I can duplicate DEQ without Audyssey.

I was also hoping that DIRAC has an equivalent to DEQ like Anthem's ARC has an "equivalent" called Dolby Leveler (not Dolby Volume since this is equivalent to Audyssey Volume).

Then the idea of getting the ATI AP16 Pre-pro would be more exciting.

I bet you could get the same thing with a miniDSP or something like it. They even make a model with Dirac built in.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Didn't Denon or someone else do exactly this....and then never made any modules?

Not sure, but I know that Theta Digital (also owned by ATI) offers upgrade modules for their $20K pre-pros.

1st, no way I'm paying anywhere close to $20K.

2nd, to replace a module would cost you like $3K, so forget that!

3rd, the Pre-pro also has other complex electronics and Preamp parts, which I don't like.

I don't know if the inside of the Theta Digital Casablanca Pre-pro is anything like the inside of my AVP-A1HDCI. But I've looked inside the AVP-A1 for a long time and I just don't see how in the heck anyone could co anything with all that mess crammed in there!!!!

I wish the inside of the AVP-A1 was more like the inside of a full size ATX tower PC case with a bunch of space to work with.

If the AV Processor just had 1 Audio Module and 1 Video Module and some minor parts, it would be so much easier to replace and upgrade.

 

[sterling shoote]

Yeah, the only reason I would replace my units is if they fail and it's not worth fixing it.

So for now I'm just waiting for my AVP-A1 to fail (volume output keeps getting lower) and then use my AVR-5308CI as the main unit. If my AVR-5308 lasts another 10 years, then I'll keep on using it. But you just never know about these things.

My problem is going to be my income precluding me from participation. I've been attempting to save for a Technics SL-1200GR since that turntable was announced and I'm still short. If my pre/pro gives up, I suppose, I'd buy a Marantz, last years model, what ever that may be, in the 8000 series. Thing is, I'll be 68 years old on July 1st, so hopefully these components I already own will last as long as I do.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

My problem is going to be my income precluding me from participation. I've been attempting to save for a Technics SL-1200GR since that turntable was announced and I'm still short. If my pre/pro gives up, I suppose, I'd buy a Marantz, last years model, what ever that may be, in the 8000 series. Thing is, I'll be 68 years old on July 1st, so hopefully these components I already own will last as long as I do.

The Marantz AV 8802 (model prior to the new 8805) is $2499 brand new from just about every dealer (Amazon, etc.).

The Marantz AV 7703 (prior to the AV 7704, but 7705 should be coming out in Sep) is $1499 brand new (Amazon).

My only fear of the AV 8802 is that it will have more internal parts than the AV 7704 and could increase risk of failure.

The reason I fear this is because my Denon AVP-A1 has a lot of internal parts crammed inside the chassis.

I thinking is that fewer parts inside a relatively bigger chassis will do some good.

I guess the other thought is that the AV 8802 may have better quality parts (capacitors, etc.) ?

Or is the thinking to just get the flagship AVP and buy a new one if it fails a few years later?

 

[Irvrobinson]

Back in my crazy PC modding days I had a friend that was an EE that may have worked for a medical device company. Either way he used to get what he called "medical grade" caps and replace all the "consumer grade" caps on his motherboards with the medical versions. He got some pretty crazy performance numbers after doing that.

From what I remember (this was over 10 years ago) he said that the medical grade stuff wasn't something that consumers could get, but wouldn't need as their spec was massive overkill for any consumer device anyway. Apparently the medical devices have to have VERY tight tolerances for anything that goes into their machines.

It'd be interesting to me to see what building an amp or pre/pro with these medical grade parts could do.

I've never seen "medical grade" caps. Cornell Dubillier, one of my favorite cap manufacturers, sells "computer grade" caps which can be used in amp power supplies. These are rated for high temperatures, and they're built for computer systems intended to have very high availability.

When power supply caps start failing you can get hum or even complete unit failure. I think the bigger problem affecting sound quality will be the caps in old discrete line-stage or lower voltage circuits, especially those in phono preamp stages. It is my understanding that cap failures caused the digital board to fail in my beloved Levinson No39 CD player. Nowadays repairing boards is either too difficult or a lost art, so most repair centers are just "board swappers", which used to be a very derogatory term in the electronics repair industry. ;-)

I've also seen write-ups of multiple examples of caps failing in LCD and Plasma displays. In all of these cases, audio or video, what strikes me is that the units involved have poor ventilation, and heat is the enemy of capacitors. (And for you SSD fans, of flash memory.) Many expensive consumer electronics products have lousy heat evacuation. If a product runs very warm to the touch, like for example my Benchmark DAC, I'm thinking 20 years is all I expect out of it. The Benchmark units have no power switch, so they're intended to be cooking 24/7 too.

 

[sterling shoote]

I've never seen "medical grade" caps. Cornell Dubillier, one of my favorite cap manufacturers, sells "computer grade" caps which can be used in amp power supplies. These are rated for high temperatures, and they're built for computer systems intended to have very high availability.

When power supply caps start failing you can get hum or even complete unit. I think the bigger problem affecting sound quality will be the caps in old discrete line-stage or lower voltage circuits, especially those in phono preamp stages. It is my understanding that cap failures caused the digital board to fail in my beloved Levinson No39 CD player. Nowadays repairing boards is either too difficult or a lost art, so most repair centers are just "board swappers", which used to be a very derogatory term in the electronics repair industry. ;-)

I've also seen write-ups of multiple examples of caps failing in LCD and Plasma displays. In all of these cases, audio or video, what strikes me that the units involved have poor ventilation, and heat is the enemy of capacitors. (And for you SSD fans, of flash memory.) Many expensive consumer electronics products have lousy heat evacuation. If a product runs very warm to the touch, like for example my Benchmark DAC, I'm thinking 20 years is all I expect out of it. The Benchmark units have no power switch, so they're intended to be cooking 24/7 too.

I have been told, the distortion I hear listening to DAT tapes upon initial fire up of my DAT Recorder may be due to leaking caps in the DAT Recorders head amp. Is this something that can be repaired? My recorder is a circa 1992 Sony PCM-7010F Professional DAT Recorder. BTW, this unit is designed for continuous usage-always powered on. I power mine on only when I want to record or playback, The unit now has about 476 hours of tape running time on it. The unit does not distort tape at all if I power it on and wait for about an hour before playing a tape.

 

[sterling shoote]

The Marantz AV 8802 (model prior to the new 8805) is $2499 brand new from just about every dealer (Amazon, etc.).

The Marantz AV 7703 (prior to the AV 7704, but 7705 should be coming out in Sep) is $1499 brand new (Amazon).

My only fear of the AV 8802 is that it will have more internal parts than the AV 7704 and could increase risk of failure.

The reason I fear this is because my Denon AVP-A1 has a lot of internal parts crammed inside the chassis.

I thinking is that fewer parts inside a relatively bigger chassis will do some good.

I guess the other thought is that the AV 8802 may have better quality parts (capacitors, etc.) ?

Or is the thinking to just get the flagship AVP and buy a new one if it fails a few years later?

You seem to be thinking about it as I have been. I've even thought about one of the least expensive Sony ES Surround Sound Receivers. Over all, if my credit is good at my time of need, the AV8002, if still out there, would be the way I am likely to go as it is most compatible with the source components I own, not requiring me to make additional purchases like a sound card, preamp, or optical to 958 converter. Plus, I will have HDMI which is absent on my TA-E9000ES. That opens up a world of pleasure that has eluded me.

 

[panteragstk]

I've never seen "medical grade" caps. Cornell Dubillier, one of my favorite cap manufacturers, sells "computer grade" caps which can be used in amp power supplies. These are rated for high temperatures, and they're built for computer systems intended to have very high availability.

When power supply caps start failing you can get hum or even complete unit failure. I think the bigger problem affecting sound quality will be the caps in old discrete line-stage or lower voltage circuits, especially those in phono preamp stages. It is my understanding that cap failures caused the digital board to fail in my beloved Levinson No39 CD player. Nowadays repairing boards is either too difficult or a lost art, so most repair centers are just "board swappers", which used to be a very derogatory term in the electronics repair industry. ;-)

I've also seen write-ups of multiple examples of caps failing in LCD and Plasma displays. In all of these cases, audio or video, what strikes me is that the units involved have poor ventilation, and heat is the enemy of capacitors. (And for you SSD fans, of flash memory.) Many expensive consumer electronics products have lousy heat evacuation. If a product runs very warm to the touch, like for example my Benchmark DAC, I'm thinking 20 years is all I expect out of it. The Benchmark units have no power switch, so they're intended to be cooking 24/7 too.

I wish I was still in touch with him so I could get some more detailed information. I'm just going off memory.

I will say that you are exactly right about heat being the enemy. I seem to remember him replacing motherboard caps for that reason. He was doing extreme overclocking on his CPU so EVERYTHING on the board got much hotter than spec. They may have just been caps that had higher heat tolerance, but he did mention that they also had more voltage stability which also helped.

I'll have to go search an old forum to see if I can find his post about this.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You seem to be thinking about it as I have been. I've even thought about one of the least expensive Sony ES Surround Sound Receivers. Over all, if my credit is good at my time of need, the AV8002, if still out there, would be the way I am likely to go as it is most compatible with the source components I own, not requiring me to make additional purchases like a sound card, preamp, or optical to 958 converter. Plus, I will have HDMI which is absent on my TA-E9000ES. That opens up a world of pleasure that has eluded me.

Oh yeah, the Marantz AV 8802A has HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2.

In terms of credit, you could get a Best Buy CC and get Best Buy to price match and then put the $2499 on your BB CC for the 24 months 0% interest!

@Cos - any words of wisdom on the AV 8802a?

BTW, the AV8802A is made in Japan and AV7704 is made in Vietnam, which may be a factor for some people.

 

[panteragstk]

I've never seen "medical grade" caps. Cornell Dubillier, one of my favorite cap manufacturers, sells "computer grade" caps which can be used in amp power supplies. These are rated for high temperatures, and they're built for computer systems intended to have very high availability.

When power supply caps start failing you can get hum or even complete unit failure. I think the bigger problem affecting sound quality will be the caps in old discrete line-stage or lower voltage circuits, especially those in phono preamp stages. It is my understanding that cap failures caused the digital board to fail in my beloved Levinson No39 CD player. Nowadays repairing boards is either too difficult or a lost art, so most repair centers are just "board swappers", which used to be a very derogatory term in the electronics repair industry. ;-)

I've also seen write-ups of multiple examples of caps failing in LCD and Plasma displays. In all of these cases, audio or video, what strikes me is that the units involved have poor ventilation, and heat is the enemy of capacitors. (And for you SSD fans, of flash memory.) Many expensive consumer electronics products have lousy heat evacuation. If a product runs very warm to the touch, like for example my Benchmark DAC, I'm thinking 20 years is all I expect out of it. The Benchmark units have no power switch, so they're intended to be cooking 24/7 too.

I found the post where he explained the grade. It wasn't medical, but just Class A, B, etc. See below. (this is from 2007, so I'm not sure if it is accurate any longer)

Look......In ALL "component world" there is a RULE....There are components which are "lebeled" somehow for best to worst - the SAME component after test - So we have "Class A" , "Class B", "Class C", etc......."Class A" goes to millitary and HIGH classed manufacturers like medical industry, HP (mesuring instraments),Hirschmann (a VERY HIGH class Germany manufacturer),etc.....
Now "Class B" goes to some other high builder companies.....
IF WE find "Class C" in the retail market, we will be more than happy.....

Unfortunatelly in the retail market the best someone could find, is from "Class K" and down......

THE BEST is to have connections with the Hirschmann for example OR with the guy that buys VERY CHEEP the components that fails Hirschmann's tests......Yes you read well.......Hirschmann buys "Class A" componnents and they re-test them and IF they are not as they should be, they sell it by thousands to a person VERY CHEEP (just for not through them away).......Well we buy them from them......And guess what!.....They work perfect for us (but not for Hirschmann)

Example: I buy a Mos-Fet 300Watts (BLF278) from Phillips to build a 300Watts F.M. Linear Amplifier.....It has a letter "N" on it's case.....OK....I construct it and it really does ~340Watts maximum......When I unplug the Antenna from it's output, it can handle ~40Watts SWR before it burns down......
Now I get one THE SAME but with a letter "A" printed on it's case from a man from Germany who has the "stock failure" parts from Hirschmann and I put it on....It does 430Watts output and when I unplug the Antenna, it burns down at ~280Watts......

So in retail market, we buy bull......OR do you think that the motherboard, VGA, etc., manufacturers are buying "Class A"?.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I have been told, the distortion I hear listening to DAT tapes upon initial fire up of my DAT Recorder may be due to leaking caps in the DAT Recorders head amp. Is this something that can be repaired? My recorder is a circa 1992 Sony PCM-7010F Professional DAT Recorder. BTW, this unit is designed for continuous usage-always powered on. I power mine on only when I want to record or playback, The unit now has about 476 hours of tape running time on it. The unit does not distort tape at all if I power it on and wait for about an hour before playing a tape.

I'm not the brightest bulb in the pack, but even I'm smart enough to know that electronics diagnosis over the internet is a bad idea. If caps are the problem, and I doubt it given the symptoms you describe, they can probably be replaced. Finding someone with the skill to debug the board(s) and replace the caps, especially since I suspect Sony probably used SMT to assemble the boards, might be challenging. Google would be your friend, and expect to ship it and pay hundreds for the entire process.

(The symptoms you're describing seem temperature-related. If I were dumb enough to guess, and I just said I'm not that dumb, it smells like a poorly functioning thermistor in some gain circuit. Given the age of this DAT product, it might be quite difficult to find someone qualified to repair it. So I'd just leave the thing powered up all the time. But like I said, diagnosing anything remotely is really dumb. I mean, since I don't have a schematic I don't even know if there's a thermistor in the entire device.)

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

"The Benchmark units have no power switch, so they're intended to be cooking 24/7 too."

Reminds me of my old Classé preamp that had no power switch on it at all. Idiocy.

The manufacturer claimed it had to be left on all the time for better sound. Give me a break.