The SEPARATES vs. AVR Thread

[Irvrobinson]

My idea of the perfect system: Separate 3-piece System.

-Pure Analog Amps that last 30 years
-Pure Analog Preamps (no tones/DSP/EQ) that last 30 years
-Audio-Video Module Box (10 LBS) that you can easily ship in for a replacement Audio-Video module

The idea is to keep things as "simple" as possible, not cram a million cards and processors into one box.

Analog stuff that lasts 30 years? More than possible, but probably not without a refurb. Capacitors are challenged to last much longer than 20 years without degradation, even the best ones. Circuit boards are more likely to develop solder whiskers and oxidation, though that's not a certainty. Analog potentiometers and selectors literally wear and get noisy. Unless the equipment is really stationary and static, connectors like RCA jacks and speaker terminals wear and are more likely to break. Anything plastic is subject to environmental aging. Also, most modern analog electronics use some sort of ASICs in them , especially op-amps, and replacement parts may be very difficult to get after 15-20 years, if they're available at all.

Just looking at classic Marantz equipment I've seen from the 1980s, including my own, I'm thinking 20 years is a more realistic lifespan target for consumer electronics.

 

[KEW]

My idea of the perfect system: Separate 3-piece System.

-Pure Analog Amps that last 30 years (amp modules can easily be replaced)
-Pure Analog Preamps (no tones/DSP/EQ, preamp modules can easily be replaced) that last 30 years
-Audio-Video Module Box (10 LBS) that you can easily ship in for a replacement Audio-Video module

The idea is to keep things as "simple" as possible, not cram a million cards and processors into one box.

Why not use a mini-PC for the AV module box and take advantage of economies of scale running software for the processing?
I know @Alex2507 has been hoping for a Windows Vista based system to integrate into his system for years!!!

 

[Mikado463]

Analog stuff that lasts 30 years? More than possible, but probably not without a refurb. Capacitors are challenged to last much longer than 20 years without degradation, even the best ones. Circuit boards are more likely to develop solder whiskers and oxidation, though that's not a certainty. Analog potentiometers and selectors literally wear and get noisy. Unless the equipment is really stationary and static, connectors like RCA jacks and speaker terminals wear and are more likely to break. Anything plastic is subject to environmental aging. Also, most modern analog electronics use some sort of ASICs in them , especially op-amps, and replacement parts may be very difficult to get after 15-20 years, if they're available at all.

Just looking at classic Marantz equipment I've seen from the 1980s, including my own, I'm thinking 20 years is a more realistic lifespan target for consumer electronics.

agreed, yet some of us are old enough to remember when appliances did in fact last that long ..... or longer !

 

[Irvrobinson]

agreed, yet some of us are old enough to remember when appliances did in fact last that long ..... or longer !

Me too, but appliances aren't audio equipment expected to perform within their specifications for 30 years.

 

[lovinthehd]

Speaking of which has anyone seen anything in the way of testing for a piece of gear when new, and then the same piece tested after "x" (10, 20 or whatever) years of use? Links if so?

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

"And if the AVRs last no more than 5-10 years, might as well just replace the whole Audio-Video every 5-10 years."

Do you think that's true though? I know people that are still using their receivers well past 10 years, 15-20 years. But maybe that's rare. I just think that 7-10 years isn't enough of a life span.

 

[Verdinut]

"And if the AVRs last no more than 5-10 years, might as well just replace the whole Audio-Video every 5-10 years."

Do you think that's true though? I know people that are still using their receivers well past 10 years, 15-20 years. But maybe that's rare. I just think that 7-10 years isn't enough of a life span.

Today, as you already know, most products are not meant to last 20-25 years, but IMO, 10 years would be a good average, and I am also thinking of a lot less with regard to kitchen appliances such as toasters, coffee makers and toaster-ovens.

Clothes washers and dyers such as the ones made by Maytag used to last at least 25 years. The company was bought over and I was told recently that brand's products were no longer of the same quality.

I had a NAD T763 AVR purchased in 2003 which I had to replace 2 years ago, but if I hadn't had an extra external amp, I would have had to replace it or get it repaired in 2014 as one of the power amps was already inoperative then. When an electronic product starts to have defective components after several years, you sometimes wonder if other components will also quit shortly after first repair. You have to decide whether it is worth getting it fixed or discarded.

AV products manufactured today don't seem to have the same reliability as the ones built 20 years ago. Adding additional components for newer features in an already cramped chassis with the resulting increased heat generation doesn't help matters. This is one of the main factors in the shortening of life span. One has to think seriously before spending more for flagship products unless he is reasonably convinced that the product has components that are adequately ventilated, as most of us know, heat kills.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Why not use a mini-PC for the AV module box and take advantage of economies of scale running software for the processing?
I know @Alex2507 has been hoping for a Windows Vista based system to integrate into his system for years!!!

If the PC could do AV processing, Audyssey, Bass Control, then that would be great.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Analog stuff that lasts 30 years? More than possible, but probably not without a refurb. Capacitors are challenged to last much longer than 20 years without degradation, even the best ones. Circuit boards are more likely to develop solder whiskers and oxidation, though that's not a certainty. Analog potentiometers and selectors literally wear and get noisy. Unless the equipment is really stationary and static, connectors like RCA jacks and speaker terminals wear and are more likely to break. Anything plastic is subject to environmental aging. Also, most modern analog electronics use some sort of ASICs in them , especially op-amps, and replacement parts may be very difficult to get after 15-20 years, if they're available at all.

Just looking at classic Marantz equipment I've seen from the 1980s, including my own, I'm thinking 20 years is a more realistic lifespan target for consumer electronics.

Could they make these things (capacitors, boards, etc.) part of the amp modules that could easily be replaced every 15-20 years?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

"And if the AVRs last no more than 5-10 years, might as well just replace the whole Audio-Video every 5-10 years."

Do you think that's true though? I know people that are still using their receivers well past 10 years, 15-20 years. But maybe that's rare. I just think that 7-10 years isn't enough of a life span.

I think it depends on how much they use the AVR and the conditions.

I think simpler models also last longer than more complex models.

And I think newer AVRs and Pre-pro may not be as reliable as older ones.

My 10YR $7500 Denon AVP-A1HDCI has been acting up and will most likely fail sooner than later. It has a lot more complex parts all crammed inside than most AVR/AVP too.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

I think it depends on how much they use the AVR and the conditions.

I think simpler models also last longer than more complex models.

And I think newer AVRs and Pre-pro may not be as reliable as older ones.

My 10YR $7500 Denon AVP-A1HDCI has been acting up and will most likely fail sooner than later. It has a lot more complex parts all crammed inside than most AVR/AVP too.

I suppose for that kind of an investment it would still be prudent to get it serviced by a good tech.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I suppose for that kind of an investment it would still be prudent to get it serviced by a good tech.

That’s another story I have to tell. Maybe tomorrow since it’s actually still busy around my house as the weekend party has not ended.

OK, long story short, I did send in my AVP-A1HDCI to the main Denon Factory Repair Center in New Jersey. They said it could cost $2,000 - $3,000 and there's no guarantee the problem won't come back after 90 days (repair warranty).

So, I decided it's not worth fixing it.

 

[Verdinut]

Could they make these things (capacitors, boards, etc.) part of the amp modules that could easily be replaced every 15-20 years?

I agree with you, but that would not answer the need for ability to process whatever new feature which is implemented almost every year nowadays.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Could they make these things (capacitors, boards, etc.) part of the amp modules that could easily be replaced every 15-20 years?

Yes. For starters, spec'ing very high quality caps that are over-rated for ambient temperature would benefit amps. Caps could be pluggable, but usually aren't for cost or safety concerns. Cooling fans are a plus too. I'm not a board expert, but I suspect the military and medical equipment companies use special techniques. Switching and potentiometers could be all digital with no moving parts.

The question is whether 50% more lifespan is worth so much extra cost. I suspect not.

 

[sterling shoote]

Well, seems pretty much all of my equipment except one piece is anywhere from 18 to 43 years old. Some of it is showing age, while other equipment is not. I guess I will replace or repair as needed. But, of course, the question is how do you replace equipment which is no longer made, like a DAT Recorder, or how to you repair equipment like an SACD Player, which needs a laser that is no longer made? Since the answer to both of these questions is "you don't", it means either the end of something in your life having some importance, or the exploration of alternatives to the means of music/movie pleasure, assuming discretionary income is at hand to buy what is desired.

Right now, I believe one of my DAT Recorders needs head amp soldering, and/or caps; but, I do not know how to do it, and I have not found any source for the needed repair, so right now I just enjoy the recorder by letting it warm up for about an hour, which seems to solve the distortion issues. How much longer that can go on I do not know, so I just try not to let it depress me.

 

[PENG]

Well, seems pretty much all of my equipment except one piece is anywhere from 18 to 43 years old.

You won! My oldest pair of Marantz (a gift) are 39 years old. I have them recapped, and the volume control cleaned up last year. No SQ difference after though.

 

[PENG]

Looks like @PENG said he is upgrading from his Marantz AV 8801 (released 2012/13?) to the Denon X3400 (released 2017/18),which means his AV 8801 is about 5 years old?

It is 5 years and one month old but look like brand new to me. I am going to try the 3400 in one of my 2 channel system for a day or 2, then in the HT room. I may then use the AV8801 in a 2 channel system, it depends.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

"Well, seems pretty much all of my equipment except one piece is anywhere from 18 to 43 years old."

That is awesome. At least you got your money's worth. I'm like you, I like to hang on to my stuff until I absolutely I have to let go.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Well, seems pretty much all of my equipment except one piece is anywhere from 18 to 43 years old. Some of it is showing age, while other equipment is not. I guess I will replace or repair as needed. But, of course, the question is how do you replace equipment which is no longer made, like a DAT Recorder, or how to you repair equipment like an SACD Player, which needs a laser that is no longer made? Since the answer to both of these questions is "you don't", it means either the end of something in your life having some importance, or the exploration of alternatives to the means of music/movie pleasure, assuming discretionary income is at hand to buy what is desired.

Right now, I believe one of my DAT Recorders needs head amp soldering, and/or caps; but, I do not know how to do it, and I have not found any source for the needed repair, so right now I just enjoy the recorder by letting it warm up for about an hour, which seems to solve the distortion issues. How much longer that can go on I do not know, so I just try not to let it depress me.

What are you thinking in terms of replacement for your old Pre-pro? Have you been searching online?

If McIntosh offered a 20YR warranty on their $7,000 MX122 Pre-pro (Audyssey XT32), I would buy it to replace my failing AVP-A1HDCI Pre-pro.

But they don't and nobody does.

So then I was thinking the Marantz AV 8802A, AV 8805, or AV 7704. Then I realized the AV 7705 should be coming out probably this September as well.

Oh yes, I also thought about the Denon X7200, X6300/6400/6500, X8500, X4400/X4500, and X3400/X3500.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

"Well, seems pretty much all of my equipment except one piece is anywhere from 18 to 43 years old."

That is awesome. At least you got your money's worth. I'm like you, I like to hang on to my stuff until I absolutely I have to let go.

Yeah, the only reason I would replace my units is if they fail and it's not worth fixing it.

So for now I'm just waiting for my AVP-A1 to fail (volume output keeps getting lower) and then use my AVR-5308CI as the main unit. If my AVR-5308 lasts another 10 years, then I'll keep on using it. But you just never know about these things.