Any insight on Yamaha's recent amp power philosophy?

[PENG]

Yeah probably more like 75db average, but it was with a crude cell phone mic, so maybe not 100% accurate. YPAO did set the levels to 0, but I bumped up my left and right speakers to +1.5db and my center to +2.0db. I can not imagine listening at 85db. My 50 plus year old ears just have no desire for that kind of volume anymore.

The cell phone one could have been way off even if the same C weighting is used. It does seem like you are not the kind of candidate to benefit from the ATI4000 series as you are not going after the senselessly high and damaging (hearing) SPL. With the 3060, you probably have at least 6 to 10 dB dynamic headroom even if you listen to reference level. That is, 85 dB average 105 dB peak, and still have 10 dB spare on hand. So save the money for high quality recording media, the top contributor to hifi sound.

 

[little wing]

The cell phone one could have been way off even if the same C weighting is used. It does seem like you are not the kind of candidate to benefit from the ATI4000 series as you are not going after the senselessly high and damaging (hearing) SPL. With the 3060, you probably have at least 6 to 10 dB dynamic headroom even if you listen to reference level. That is, 85 dB average 105 dB peak, and still have 10 dB spare on hand. So save the money for high quality recording media, the top contributor to hifi sound.

Ok, thanks PENG - For me that 's CDs ripped to a WAV file. Sometimes I find something to buy from HD tracks, but I honestly can't tell the difference between a WAV file or music downloaded from HD tracks.

 

[PENG]

For me that 's CDs ripped to a WAV file. Sometimes I find something to buy from HD tracks, but I honestly can't tell the difference between a WAV file or music downloaded from HD tracks.

I also don't find formats, such as CD vs wave, flac, wma, aiff, aac or resolution above 16bit/44.1 kHz through 32bit/384 kHz and DSD64/128/256/512 make any audible difference. I did buy a lot of HD files HD track, but only because typically I found their much higher priced high resolution files especially the DSD ones, tend to be derived from high quality masters.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

On another topic related to Yamaha AVR, it is true that when you configure the Yamaha AVR for speakers to LARGE and subwoofers to YES, you are not allowed to set the Crossover at all?

For Denon/Marantz, it doesn't matter if the speakers are set to small or large, as long as the subwoofer is set to YES, you can set the XO for all speakers or individual speakers (Mains 80Hz, Center 100Hz, Surrounds 120Hz).

 

[PENG]

On another topic related to Yamaha AVR, it is true that when you configure the Yamaha AVR for speakers to LARGE and subwoofers to YES, you are not allowed to set the Crossover at all?

For Denon/Marantz, it doesn't matter if the speakers are set to small or large, as long as the subwoofer is set to YES, you can set the XO for all speakers or individual speakers (Mains 80Hz, Center 100Hz, Surrounds 120Hz).

That could make some sense I suppose, if you set it to LFE+Main. If Yamaha does not have this feature, then I would think they don't have the LFE+Main setting?

 

[little wing]

Yes, when you set main speakers to large you will not have access to change the crossover.

I found this explanation on another forum

"In this context "Large" means that your receiver sends the entire audible range to your mains speakers and nothing at all to the sub. You almost certainly do not want this setting.

The confusingly named "small" setting simply means that only a portion of the frequency range is sent to the mains, and some lower range is sent to your subwoofer. Almost everyone wants to use this "small" setting. Even if your mains can go really low, it's power inefficient and a powered sub is going to relieve your receiver from having to hit the super low frequencies which demand a great deal of power.

Almost everyone is best served with the "small" setting, and do not get hung up on that poorly chosen word. Small just means that you expect to hear your mains and your subwoofer.

With "small" you'll have a crossover frequency which determines what frequency is sent to your L/R mains and what frequencies are sent to the subwoofer. With small "smalls" that can be as high as 80Hz and with huge, impressive "smalls" that can be as low as 40Hz.

With "large" there is no crossover frequency. "small" just means that there is one."

You can take that for what it's worth (probably not much to most folks here)

I use small with a crossover of 60hz and I turn the "Extra Bass feature on, and use the subwoofer trim to fine tune. Works for me.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yes, when you set main speakers to large you will not have access to change the crossover.

Yeah, that wouldn’t be any issue for me either.

If you have subs, always set speakers to small.

If you don’t have subs and have full-range speakers, set to large.

But some people may be more stubborn and must insist on setting speakers to large + be able to set XO for subs; in which case they would be happy with Denon/Marantz.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

That could make some sense I suppose, if you set it to LFE+Main. If Yamaha does not have this feature, then I would think they don't have the LFE+Main setting?

2 Yamaha owners said you can still get bass sent to the subs when you set speakers to large, but you just can’t set the XO.

So the question is, if you cannot set the XO, then what kind of bass is being sent to the subs?

 

[lovinthehd]

Yeah, that wouldn’t be any issue for me either.

If you have subs, always set speakers to small.

If you don’t have subs and have full-range speakers, set to large.

But some people may be more stubborn and must insist on setting speakers to large + be able to set XO for subs; in which case they would be happy with Denon/Marantz.

But it's not a crossover in main plus lfe when speaker is set to large/full range....just a low pass for the sub only.

Ps wonder if it is a fixed low pass in the Yamahas...

 

[PENG]

2 Yamaha owners said you can still get bass sent to the subs when you set speakers to large, but you just can’t set the XO.

So the question is, if you cannot set the XO, then what kind of bass is being sent to the subs?

That was my point, but people are not always logical, even programmers. D&M's has the LPF for LFE setting that can be set to 250 Hz though 120 Hz is the practical limit. Yamaha may or may not have the equivalent feature. If they do, then I would assume in their "extra bass" setting, the sub will get everything up to the limit of the maximum allowed for the LFE channel. I realize LFE is LFE only, but it is reasonable to assume the higher limit may apply to the subout in general.

I did a quick search in the manual of the RX-A series and found nothing useful, could have missed though. It seems that D&M has better bass management features.

 

[PENG]

But it's not a crossover in main plus lfe when speaker is set to large/full range....just a low pass for the sub only.

Ps wonder if it is a fixed low pass in the Yamahas...

Right, they just call it "extra bass", that enhances bass regardless of the "small" or "large" setting, the manual unfortunately does not elaborate.

 

[lovinthehd]

Right, they just call it "extra bass", that enhances bass regardless of the "small" or "large" setting, the manual unfortunately does not elaborate.

Thanks, was just about to look in the manual. So if not some sort of fixed low pass, you can use the low pass on the sub to adjust somewhat....

 

[little wing]

Here is an article AH did on the Extra Bass feature a few years back

https://www.audioholics.com/home-theater-connection/utilizing-extra-bass

 

[TheWarrior]

Here is an article AH did on the Extra Bass feature a few years back

https://www.audioholics.com/home-theater-connection/utilizing-extra-bass

Don’t you have the 3060 also? I run the Phil 3s Large and can still set the LFE xover.

 

[little wing]

Don’t you have the 3060 also? I run the Phil 3s Large and can still set the LFE xover.

I do. How do you set the crossover with main speakers set to large?

 

[TechHDS]

Yes, when you set main speakers to large you will not have access to change the crossover.

I found this explanation on another forum

"In this context "Large" means that your receiver sends the entire audible range to your mains speakers and nothing at all to the sub. You almost certainly do not want this setting.

The confusingly named "small" setting simply means that only a portion of the frequency range is sent to the mains, and some lower range is sent to your subwoofer. Almost everyone wants to use this "small" setting. Even if your mains can go really low, it's power inefficient and a powered sub is going to relieve your receiver from having to hit the super low frequencies which demand a great deal of power.

Almost everyone is best served with the "small" setting, and do not get hung up on that poorly chosen word. Small just means that you expect to hear your mains and your subwoofer.

With "small" you'll have a crossover frequency which determines what frequency is sent to your L/R mains and what frequencies are sent to the subwoofer. With small "smalls" that can be as high as 80Hz and with huge, impressive "smalls" that can be as low as 40Hz.

With "large" there is no crossover frequency. "small" just means that there is one."

You can take that for what it's worth (probably not much to most folks here)

I use small with a crossover of 60hz and I turn the "Extra Bass feature on, and use the subwoofer trim to fine tune. Works for me.

Big thank you for posting this up, I had ask a few members on this very same subject. Couldn't get anything on the settings with your post I'm going back into my setting right now to make the adjustments I have the 7790. The unit has performed flawlessly to date. Again Thanks!

 

[little wing]

Big thank you for posting this up, I had ask a few members on this very same subject. Couldn't get anything on the settings with your post I'm going back into my setting right now to make the adjustments I have the 7790. The unit has performed flawlessly to date. Again Thanks!

You're welcome, I experimented with extra bass on and off for months. I finally settled on leaving it on and using the subwoofer trim to adjust from there.

 

[little wing]

Yeah, that wouldn’t be any issue for me either.

If you have subs, always set speakers to small.

If you don’t have subs and have full-range speakers, set to large.

But some people may be more stubborn and must insist on setting speakers to large + be able to set XO for subs; in which case they would be happy with Denon/Marantz.

True - I've often thought about picking up a comparable Denon and having them both at the same time to play with. See if I can hear a difference for myself between Denon and Yamaha. Although it wouldn't be a true blind listening test.

 

[PENG]

True - I've often thought about picking up a comparable Denon and having them both at the same time to play with. See if I can hear a difference for myself between Denon and Yamaha. Although it wouldn't be a true blind listening test.

I am not sure what you meant by a true blind listening test. In my experience, unless you are really prone to Placebo effect, a controlled sighted test is enough, otherwise a single blind test should be good enough for most people, I would think..

 

[little wing]

I am not sure what you meant by a true blind listening test. In my experience, unless you are really prone to Placebo effect, a controlled sighted test is enough, otherwise a single blind test should be good enough for most people, I would think..

I mean level matched with somebody else doing the switching, and I don't know which one I'm listening to.

It seems D/M seems to have better Bass management features, just wondering if it translates to noticeably better sound.