Dream Separates System

[Out-Of-Phase]

Speaking of ATI, Theta Digital (American made) and ATI are coming out with new Pre-Pros.

Too bad Theta and ATI are going with Dirac, not Audyssey XT32 DEQ.

But very pretty.

That is beautiful. It gets a '10' on looks alone.

 

[Verdinut]

"Too bad their digital components ($10K Pre-pro) only have a 5YR warranty."


I wonder why that is?

Maybe the 20 year warranty on their other products have started costing them too much !

 

[Irvrobinson]

Maybe the 20 year warranty on their other products have started costing them too much !

My theory is that the ASICs used in pre-pros are likely to go out of production well before 20 years is up, and the replacement stock requirement might have to be full boards not just chips. That would be very expensive. Amp parts are far more likely to have inter-changeable replacement parts available over 20 years.

 

[MrBoat]

For speakers, I can't imagine keeping any for 20 years. Speakers are still improving too much for that.

I hope to keep speakers for 20 years but I would not count on a warranty to assure that. As long as the company provides replacement parts, or that there are likely available cross reference parts at least I can handle the rest.

As far as speakers always improving, it seems they have already exceeded the limits/qualities of human hearing well before now. The things we fuss over now are really reaching. Besides, if we got much better, we would exceed the quality of the music itself. I reckon perhaps HT could use some improvement but I find it hard to fathom an improvement with music.

We see a lot of people still who upgrade to the next new thing and experience regret compared to their old gear. As I upgraded to more modern speakers/tactics, I already knew what to expect or chase, SQ wise, and used prior experience of what speakers should sound like from years ago as a reference.

The biggest improvement in speakers now compared to decades ago? I have more money to spend on them now.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

As far as speakers always improving, it seems they have already exceeded the limits/qualities of human hearing well before now.

I agree.

For speakers, I can't imagine keeping any for 20 years. Speakers are still improving too much for that.

Are you talking about speaker sound quality still improving?

I’ve heard a few 30YR speakers that sound better than some brand new ones today.

For example, I don’t think the new B&W 800 Diamond speakers today sound better than the B&W 800 Matrix of years ago.

And the 800s D3 Sound no better than the D1 from a few years ago.

I think it’s placebo effect.

But that’s another thread - Dream Speaker System.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Too bad Theta and ATI are going with Dirac, not Audyssey XT32 DEQ.

It seems a lot of new Pre-pros are going with Dirac.

I wasn't impressed with the Dirac in my uncle's system.

@RichB doesn't seem too impressed with Dirac either.

Is Dirac pretty much giving away (or sell extremely cheap) their Dirac software for the time being to attract new customers, kind of like Auro 3D?

 

[Irvrobinson]

As far as speakers always improving, it seems they have already exceeded the limits/qualities of human hearing well before now. The things we fuss over now are really reaching. Besides, if we got much better, we would exceed the quality of the music itself. I reckon perhaps HT could use some improvement but I find it hard to fathom an improvement with music.

We see a lot of people still who upgrade to the next new thing and experience regret compared to their old gear. As I upgraded to more modern speakers/tactics, I already knew what to expect or chase, SQ wise, and used prior experience of what speakers should sound like from years ago as a reference.

The biggest improvement in speakers now compared to decades ago? I have more money to spend on them now.

Obviously, I completely disagree. Very few speakers are capable of accurately reproducing a live solo acoustic instrument in a residential room. None I've ever heard are capable of reproducing, say, a piano or a violin such that you really can't tell the difference between the real thing and the reproduction. Don't believe me? Buy a $300 handheld digital recorder (I like the Tascams), you don't even need mikes, and make some recordings.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Are you talking about speaker sound quality still improving?

I’ve heard a few 30YR speakers that sound better than some brand new ones today.

For example, I don’t think the new B&W 800 Diamond speakers today sound better than the B&W 800 Matrix of years ago.

And the 800s D3 Sound no better than the D1 from a few years ago.

I think it’s placebo effect.

But that’s another thread - Dream Speaker System.

We're not just on different pages, we're in different books.

 

[Verdinut]

It seems a lot of new Pre-pros are going with Dirac.

I wasn't impressed with the Dirac in my uncle's system.

@RichB doesn't seem too impressed with Dirac either.

Is Dirac pretty much giving away (or sell extremely cheap) their Dirac software for the time being to attract new customers, kind of like Auro 3D?

What makes Audyssey XT32 any better than Dirac? Is it because it features DEQ?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

What makes Audyssey XT32 any better than Dirac? Is it because it features DEQ?

Yeah, I don't care for Audyssey XT32 either or any Room EQ.

I just care for the DEQ part.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

We're not just on different pages, we're in different books.

Everyone has their own subjective interpretation of accurate sound or better sound or improving sound.

This is where we can all agree to disagree.

We all have our own personal preferences.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

Obviously, I completely disagree. Very few speakers are capable of accurately reproducing a live solo acoustic instrument in a residential room. None I've ever heard are capable of reproducing, say, a piano or a violin such that you really can't tell the difference between the real thing and the reproduction. Don't believe me? Buy a $300 handheld digital recorder (I like the Tascams), you don't even need mikes, and make some recordings.

I'm inclined to agree with you, but if that's the case, are there any speakers out there that you can recommend for timbre accuracy?

 

[Irvrobinson]

I'm inclined to agree with you, but if that's the case, are there any speakers out there that you can recommend for timbre accuracy?

The real problem in my experience is the ability to play rather loudly with very low distortion and flat frequency response. As you probably know, the way the ear-brain system works, reproduced sound will only be perceived as accurate if it is played at the same loudness as the original. Flutes are relatively easy in this regard. (I had my step daughter once play along with a recording of herself, standing between my speakers, and it was difficult to tell the reproduction from the original.) It takes a hell of speaker system to fool someone with an upright piano, and I haven't heard it done with a 9' grand piano. My Salon2/Velodyne DD18plus system in our 9000 CF+ living room can't fool me with my wife's DW Jazz series drum kit, which is pretty modest in size, though if she is not rambunctious the reproduction is very good. Her rock drum kit, which has a 22" kick drum and bigger toms, is untouchable by my system. The reproduced version is blatantly obvious.

A marimba is louder than one would think, and my wife's is only a 4.3 octave version, not the in-vogue 5 octave versions like orchestras use. The system does a good job, but doesn't fool me.

I admit to being attracted to large full-range electrostatics, like the Sound Labs or the Martin Logan CLX, though they definitely need subs for most music. They sound "real" in a way that conventional speakers don't. Have you ever heard one?

 

[MrBoat]

Obviously, I completely disagree. Very few speakers are capable of accurately reproducing a live solo acoustic instrument in a residential room. None I've ever heard are capable of reproducing, say, a piano or a violin such that you really can't tell the difference between the real thing and the reproduction. Don't believe me? Buy a $300 handheld digital recorder (I like the Tascams), you don't even need mikes, and make some recordings.

Not really disagreeing. People are allowed to have whatever expectations they need/want.

A lot of live music sucks and is more about 'seeing' the performance. Not all live ventures are held in acoustically ideal places so, how do you know? Do you mean live music recorded in anechoic rooms? Much of this is going to be controlled by EQ in the future. I'm not holding my breath. As it is, people are taking the best possible speakers and putting them in the worst possible rooms. 3/4ths of the price of many high end speakers is devoted to the part you look at. Oh look, another flawless, "piano black" speaker!

The speakers I use I can determine enough from acoustical music like, the sound of a vintage Martin, a current Takamine or Ovation guitar. It sounds close enough in this room to where I would have to have a side-by-side comparison and then decide which one I actually like better.

A lot of bands I saw live were a disappointment compared to their studio efforts. Much of what studio engineers are trying to portray, is coming across as designed or real close, depending on whether we put great speakers, or even the same exact monitors they used in our crappy rooms. Have you ever had to repair a studio, or even live recording to something listenable via EQ?

IMO, the next advance with playback is going to have to happen on the recording/source end. This likely entails getting rid of the deeply flawed human input, and hand that over to computers as well. We all know how much modern audiophiles love their science and perfect measurements. These days, the measurements end up as a safe bet disclaimer to where that is unanimous before an audiophile will even dare say a speaker sounds good.

 

[Verdinut]

I'm inclined to agree with you, but if that's the case, are there any speakers out there that you can recommend for timbre accuracy?

IMO, most good speakers on the market have timbre accuracy. One's preference has to do with some other factors such as the music usually listened to, whether or not he has been subjected to hearing good speakers and has a musically trained ear.

If a bassoon sounds like a saxophone, there's a problem.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

The real problem in my experience is the ability to play rather loudly with very low distortion and flat frequency response. As you probably know, the way the ear-brain system works, reproduced sound will only be perceived as accurate if it is played at the same loudness as the original. Flutes are relatively easy in this regard. (I had my step daughter once play along with a recording of herself, standing between my speakers, and it was difficult to tell the reproduction from the original.) It takes a hell of speaker speaker to fool someone with an upright piano, and I haven't heard it done with a 9' grand piano. My Salon2/Velodyne DD18plus system in our 9000 CF+ living room can't fool me with my wife's DW Jazz series drum kit, which is pretty modest in size, though if she is not rambunctious the reproduction is very good. Her rock drum kit, which has a 22" kick drum and bigger toms, is untouchable by my system. The reproduced version is blatantly obvious.

A marimba is louder than one would think, and my wife's is only a 4.3 octave version, not the in-vogue 5 octave versions like orchestras use. The system does a good job, but doesn't fool me.

I admit to being attracted to large full-range electrostatics, like the Sound Labs or the Martin Logan CLS, though they definitely need subs for most music. They sound "real" in a way that conventional speakers don't. Have you ever heard one?

Yes, I have heard several Martin Logan speakers at a dealer close by. Wonderful open sound. I have also heard the Magnepan MMGi, .7 and 1.7 speakers. I enjoyed their presentation as well. I thought timbre was very accurate on both brands. I was told however that both brands need a large room to take full advantage of their potential and they must be pulled out from the wall to avoid reflections. At one time, I was going to pull the trigger and purchase the newer MMGi's, but I never did. I guess I'm still looking. (*sighs*)

 

[Irvrobinson]

Yes, I have heard several Martin Logan speakers at a dealer close by. Wonderful open sound. I have also heard the Magnepan MMGi, .7 and 1.7 speakers. I enjoyed their presentation as well. I thought timbre was very accurate on both brands. I was told however that both brands need a large room to take full advantage of their potential and they must be pulled out from the wall to avoid reflections. At one time, I was going to pull the trigger and purchase the newer MMGi's, but I never did. I guess I'm still looking. (*sighs*)

And all of that is true. Large rooms and at least six feet from the back and side walls are requirements. But to me they sound oddly accurate compared to box speakers. I've heard a lot of theories about why that's true, but whatever the reason they just are. And they get very expensive too. The ML CLX is like $25K/pair, and need subs. The Sound Labs are in the $35K+ range, and are huge. The Quads are too small to have decent bass, and really not in this league, though they sound great for some music.

 

[panteragstk]

The real problem in my experience is the ability to play rather loudly with very low distortion and flat frequency response. As you probably know, the way the ear-brain system works, reproduced sound will only be perceived as accurate if it is played at the same loudness as the original. Flutes are relatively easy in this regard. (I had my step daughter once play along with a recording of herself, standing between my speakers, and it was difficult to tell the reproduction from the original.) It takes a hell of speaker speaker to fool someone with an upright piano, and I haven't heard it done with a 9' grand piano. My Salon2/Velodyne DD18plus system in our 9000 CF+ living room can't fool me with my wife's DW Jazz series drum kit, which is pretty modest in size, though if she is not rambunctious the reproduction is very good. Her rock drum kit, which has a 22" kick drum and bigger toms, is untouchable by my system. The reproduced version is blatantly obvious.

A marimba is louder than one would think, and my wife's is only a 4.3 octave version, not the in-vogue 5 octave versions like orchestras use. The system does a good job, but doesn't fool me.

I admit to being attracted to large full-range electrostatics, like the Sound Labs or the Martin Logan CLS, though they definitely need subs for most music. They sound "real" in a way that conventional speakers don't. Have you ever heard one?

Good points. Drums from what I hear from guys that do the recording/miking/mixing drums are by far one of the most difficult. Capturing sound accurately is as much of an art as making music.

For me, finding good recordings of orchestra and acoustic guitar seem to be difficult. I love piano, but it's the same. Not that great of recordings from what I've randomly tried. I don't even have that great a speaker system and I can tell the recordings aren't that good.

I know I could do more research to see if I can find some that are better, but other than here I wouldn't know where to look.

I've auditioned many a high end speaker, but never had or heard any source material that really made me go "wow, that makes a big difference".

 

[Verdinut]

Yes, I have heard several Martin Logan speakers at a dealer close by. Wonderful open sound. I have also heard the Magnepan MMGi, .7 and 1.7 speakers. I enjoyed their presentation as well. I thought timbre was very accurate on both brands. I was told however that both brands need a large room to take full advantage of their potential and they must be pulled out from the wall to avoid reflections. At one time, I was going to pull the trigger and purchase the newer MMGi's, but I never did. I guess I'm still looking. (*sighs*)

When you listen to speakers, you have to make sure that they are not "Out Of Phase"

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...they sound oddly accurate compared to box speakers. I've heard a lot of theories about why that's true...

Reminds me of Peter Aczel of The Audio Critic raving about the Linkwitz Orion speakers and how they sound truer and more lifelike than any "monkey coffin box speaker".

His endorsement for the Orion sure worked because I bought a pair.

I've heard some big Magnepan and Martin Logan speakers at dealers a few times.

Different strokes for different folks.