Need expert help on a receiver choice

[DeSoto]

You all here seem very tech savy, so I am hoping for some great direction here. I want a 'true' high power AV receiver that will not only do all the cool AV stuff that most decent ones will do, but will also drive to sets of power hungry speakers and do it well. I have vintage Infinity Kappa 7 and Kappa 9 speakers that when powered right, cannot be beaten at almost any price. I need about 200 WPC, stable at 4 ohms to drive these well. I am more concerned about this, then driving 7 or 9 channels at 100 watts, since it does not take that kind of power to realize a good movie experience - music is different. For sake of ease, I do not really want to go to separates like another amp driven by pre-outs. I am willing to pay upwards of the 2000 range if I can get what I want. Is there anything that fits the bill and wont crash under these loads? I have included the tech sheet for the Kappa 7's.

 

[PENG]

You all here seem very tech savy, so I am hoping for some great direction here. I want a 'true' high power AV receiver that will not only do all the cool AV stuff that most decent ones will do, but will also drive to sets of power hungry speakers and do it well. I have vintage Infinity Kappa 7 and Kappa 9 speakers that when powered right, cannot be beaten at almost any price. I need about 200 WPC, stable at 4 ohms to drive these well. I am more concerned about this, then driving 7 or 9 channels at 100 watts, since it does not take that kind of power to realize a good movie experience - music is different. For sake of ease, I do not really want to go to separates like another amp driven by pre-outs. I am willing to pay upwards of the 2000 range if I can get what I want. Is there anything that fits the bill and wont crash under these loads? I have included the tech sheet for the Kappa 7's.

The specs say 40-200 W but that doesn't mean you must use a 200 W amp. It depends on your room size and sitting distance. Those 4 ohms speakers are not too hard to drive because of the very decent sensitivity.

The Denon AVR-X7200W may fit your $2000 budget now that it has been superseded by the AVR-X8500H.

It should be capable of delivering >200 W to your 4 ohm speakers, both channel driven simultaneously for music program.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-x7200w-av-receiver-test-bench

 

[DeSoto]

That is great, I will check that out, and to be clear, my budget is anywhere below 3000 preferably.

 

[DeSoto]

This one I have been considering along with the Denon AVR-X7200W you mentioned. I would love to hear yours and anyones thoughts based on my wants:

Onkyo TX-RZ1100
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01KYANDIQ/?coliid=I3MWWWIZP3U1U4&colid=1C7HQXK72QV19&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

Also the Yamaha RX-A3070BL and Pioneer SC-LX701

 

[PENG]

This one I have been considering along with the Denon AVR-X7200W you mentioned. I would love to hear yours and anyones thoughts based on my wants:

Onkyo TX-RZ1100
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01KYANDIQ/?coliid=I3MWWWIZP3U1U4&colid=1C7HQXK72QV19&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

Also the Yamaha RX-A3070BL and Pioneer SC-LX701

I think for two channel use, the RX-A3070 or A3060 would be excellent. It you think you can benefit from REQ, I believe Audyssey works better so my choice would be the Denon, otherwise I would take the Yamaha. Relative to the their launch prices, the Denon would represent better value due to the huge price drop since. Back to your original point about high power AVR, in the $3000 range or even much higher, there really isn't too many such animals that are "true" high power AVR that offers all, or almost all of the latest features. You have already picked out the top 2.

The last top or second to the top most powerful AVR would go back almost 10 years, the Denon AVR-4308. That one fits what you would call a "true" high power AVR (still relatively obviously). Just take a look of the bench test results and you will see that it had more output at lower distortions than some much more expensive and heavier AVRs such as those from NAD.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-4308ci-av-receiver-measurements

Based on track record in terms of performance and reliability, you really have narrowed your best choices yourself to the "best" two already, now just roll a dice.

 

[Leemix]

I know you hope to avoid it. BUt if those kappas are like the kappa 80 i used to use im not sure any receiver will make it sing, i needed to bi amp with a parasound 2205 to get it to.


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[PENG]

I know you hope to avoid it. BUt if those kappas are like the kappa 80 i used to use im not sure any receiver will make it sing, i needed to bi amp with a parasound 2205 to get it to.


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That's interesting.. The Kappa 80 would take a little more power than his RS 7 Kappa based on specs. Looking at the specs though, I am quite sure the Denon and Yamaha he's considering would have no trouble driving even the RS 9 Kappa. It is really interesting that you need to biamp using a 2205 to make them sing. Compare to the RX-A3070, the 2205 should give you no more than 2 dB driving a 4 ohm load. Sitting a couple feet closer would likely level the playing field.

The Kappa 80 has a very modest sensitivity, say on the low side but not very low. It's 89 dB/2.83V so assuming it's nominal impedance is actually 4 ohm (spec says 6-8 ohm), the sensitivity would still be 86 dB/1W, there is on the low side for sure but not an extreme case depending on other factors. It of course depends on the room and sitting distance a lot. Regardless, the recommended power is only 25-250W, so for maximum spl sitting far away (say >4 meters) with lots of headroom, one can pair them with a 400 W amp to gain some headroom for unusually high peaks in some music contents, but from 200 W to 400 W you only gain 3 dB. Anything more than 400 W would likely be recommended against by the Infinity people as unnecessary.

A more detail look of the specs reveals more reasons that they don't need a lot of power to "sing".

- DC resistance of the woofer is 11.6 ohm, to be safe, assume that's per unit, so that's 5.8 ohm for the pair.
- DC resistance of the midrange and tweeters are 3.4 ohm. That's just D.C.

So Infinity's claim of 6-8 ohm nominal seems very reasonable, and the fact that the woofers have 5.8 ohm minimum, ignoring the not insignificant impedance contribution of the two inductors tells me the Kappa 80 is not really as power hungry as their owners were led to believe. Aside from the pychoacoustics side of things, based on specs, and the reputation of Infinity I would be very comfortable driving even your Kappa-80 with a flag ship AVR.

 

[Leemix]

That's interesting.. The Kappa 80 would take a little more power than his RS 7 Kappa based on specs. Looking at the specs though, I am quite sure the Denon and Yamaha he's considering would have no trouble driving even the RS 9 Kappa. It is really interesting that you need to biamp using a 2205 to make them sing. Compare to the RX-A3070, the 2205 should give you no more than 2 dB driving a 4 ohm load. Sitting a couple feet closer would likely level the playing field.

The Kappa 80 has a very modest sensitivity, say on the low side but not very low. It's 89 dB/2.83V so assuming it's nominal impedance is actually 4 ohm (spec says 6-8 ohm), the sensitivity would still be 86 dB/1W, there is on the low side for sure but not an extreme case depending on other factors. It of course depends on the room and sitting distance a lot. Regardless, the recommended power is only 25-250W, so for maximum spl sitting far away (say >4 meters) with lots of headroom, one can pair them with a 400 W amp to gain some headroom for unusually high peaks in some music contents, but from 200 W to 400 W you only gain 3 dB. Anything more than 400 W would likely be recommended against by the Infinity people as unnecessary.

A more detail look of the specs reveals more reasons that they don't need a lot of power to "sing".

- DC resistance of the woofer is 11.6 ohm, to be safe, assume that's per unit, so that's 5.8 ohm for the pair.
- DC resistance of the midrange and tweeters are 3.4 ohm. That's just D.C.

So Infinity's claim of 6-8 ohm nominal seems very reasonable, and the fact that the woofers have 5.8 ohm minimum, ignoring the not insignificant impedance contribution of the two inductors tells me the Kappa 80 is not really as power hungry as their owners were led to believe. Aside from the pychoacoustics side of things, based on specs, and the reputation of Infinity I would be very comfortable driving even your Kappa-80 with a flag ship AVR.

They could play loud not bi amped even with a parasound 1000a which i guess is somewhat comparable to good receivers but they played a lot better, much more open with more power and even better bi-amped. Dont know why and i tried a lot of different things. I dont bi-amp my current speakers.


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[Leemix]

Back on track, it depends a bit on how much movies vs music and type of music. For most a receiver will do a very good job.


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[PENG]

They could play loud not bi amped even with a parasound 1000a which i guess is somewhat comparable to good receivers but they played a lot better, much more open with more power and even better bi-amped. Dont know why and i tried a lot of different things. I dont bi-amp my current speakers.


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That's why I thought it was interesting as I don't know why either. Whatever it was though, power would not have been the issue if the AVR you referred to were as powerful (verified by bench tests) as the two that the OP is talking about. You weren't the only one who mentioned some of the Kappa speakers needed a lot of power, but everything is relative. Going back >20 years, I believe very few AVRs (if they even exist) that could be bench tested to output >200 WPC (continuously, so called..). Most two channel receivers in those days were probably rated 30-100 WPC with relatively (e.g. relative to the 4308's 0.002% up to 150W) high distortion.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

That is great, I will check that out, and to be clear, my budget is anywhere below 3000 preferably.

Out of curiosity, why AVR with a budget close to $3K?

Denon DN-700AVP Pre-pro for $800:

Monolith 200W x 7Ch Amp (made and service by ATI w/ 5 YR warranty) for $1100 B-stock:

https://www.monoprice.com/product?c_id=109&cp_id=10919&cs_id=1091903&p_id=30876&seq=1&format=2

Total price $1,900.

Now if you care about Audyssey XT32 Dynamic EQ, then definitely get a Denon or Marantz AVR.

But if you are planning on bypassing all the EQ and using Direct mode, then I think the Denon Pre-pro + Monolith amp may be better than spending close to 3K on an AVR.

If great sounding AVR is fine for you (if you don't care for Pre-pro separates), then I would say get a Denon X3000 series on sale for $600 + the Monolith 200W x 7Ch B-stock for $1100 = $1,700.

 

[PENG]

Out of curiosity, why AVR with a budget close to $3K?

Denon DN-700AVP Pre-pro for $800:

Monolith 200W x 7Ch Amp (made and service by ATI w/ 5 YR warranty) for $1100 B-stock:

https://www.monoprice.com/product?c_id=109&cp_id=10919&cs_id=1091903&p_id=30876&seq=1&format=2

Total price $1,900.

Now if you care about Audyssey XT32 Dynamic EQ, then definitely get a Denon or Marantz AVR.

But if you are planning on bypassing all the EQ and using Direct mode, then I think the Denon Pre-pro + Monolith amp may be better than spending close to 3K on an AVR.

If great sounding AVR is fine for you (if you don't care for Pre-pro separates), then I would say get a Denon X3000 series on sale for $600 + the Monolith 200W x 7Ch B-stock for $1100 = $1,700.

I agree with you but in his first post he indicated he did want to have 2 separate pieces. You seem happy enough with the light weight 3100s so may be you should sell him the 4 ohm stable 5308ci for $2000 or less?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I agree with you but in his first post he indicated he did want to have 2 separate pieces. You seem happy enough with the light weight 3100s so may be you should sell him the 4 ohm stable 5308ci for $2000 or less?

Yeah, I missed that part where he said he does NOT want a separate amp.

I don't mind selling him my 5308 for $2K, but not a penny less!

 

[M Code]

You all here seem very tech savy, so I am hoping for some great direction here. I want a 'true' high power AV receiver that will not only do all the cool AV stuff that most decent ones will do, but will also drive to sets of power hungry speakers and do it well. I have vintage Infinity Kappa 7 and Kappa 9 speakers that when powered right, cannot be beaten at almost any price. I need about 200 WPC, stable at 4 ohms to drive these well. I am more concerned about this, then driving 7 or 9 channels at 100 watts, since it does not take that kind of power to realize a good movie experience - music is different. For sake of ease, I do not really want to go to separates like another amp driven by pre-outs. I am willing to pay upwards of the 2000 range if I can get what I want. Is there anything that fits the bill and wont crash under these loads? I have included the tech sheet for the Kappa 7's.

The Infinity Kappa loudspeakers need power/current to sound right.. Even though the Infinity brand is owned by Harman International their design team had totally different criteria than JBL. Infinity systems were lower impedance/sensitivity, sealed cabinets while the JBL systems were higher impedance/sensitivity, ported cabinets.

Based on this I would recommend that U purchase as high of power AVR your budget can afford. Also make sure the AVR has pre-outs so U can add an external power amplifier later if required. Whether or not an AVR will meet your expectations depends upon other factors including:

• Room size
• Average SPL volume level
• Type of source, compressed, uncompressed
• Source media choice
• Subwoofer used

Note that I am a fan of the older Infinity loudspeaker systems, to my ears they have great clarity and I particularly like their tight, snapping bass. Again everyone has different hearing so some may like the Infinity sound and others may not, but 1 thing is for sure U need to put some real power/current to drive them to their full performance potential...

Just my $0.02...

 

[PENG]

The Infinity Kappa loudspeakers need power/current to sound right.. Even though the Infinity brand is owned by Harman International their design team had totally different criteria than JBL. Infinity systems were lower impedance/sensitivity, sealed cabinets while the JBL systems were higher impedance/sensitivity, ported cabinets.

Based on this I would recommend that U purchase as high of power AVR your budget can afford. Also make sure the AVR has pre-outs so U can add an external power amplifier later if required. Whether or not an AVR will meet your expectations depends upon other factors including:

• Room size
• Average SPL volume level
• Type of source, compressed, uncompressed
• Source media choice
• Subwoofer used

Note that I am a fan of the older Infinity loudspeaker systems, to my ears they have great clarity and I particularly like their tight, snapping bass. Again everyone has different hearing so some may like the Infinity sound and others may not, but 1 thing is for sure U need to put some real power/current to drive them to their full performance potential...

Just my $0.02...

More power is better and will make a difference if put to use, even just for momentary peaks, but will not make a difference if not put to use.

The 3070 and 7200's voltage, current, and power are as real as any similarly rated power amps.

Old myths, hearsay really die hard!!

 

[PENG]

Yeah, I missed that part where he said he does NOT want a separate amp.

I don't mind selling him my 5308 for $2K, but not a penny less!

My 4308 actually tested better on 2 channel output into 4 ohms but I would trade yours any time and give you $200.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

My 4308 actually tested better on 2 channel output into 4 ohms but I would trade yours any time and give you $200.

No thanks.

I'll keep my AVR-5308CI, which according to Crutchfield, has the same Burr-Brown PCM 1796 DAC as the AVP-A1HDCI.


https://www.crutchfield.com/S-UKDbnVQvpHG/p_033AV5308C/Denon-AVR-5308CI.html


https://www.crutchfield.com/p_033AVPA1HD/Denon-AVP-A1HDCI.html?search=Denon+AVP+A1HDCI&osp=denon+avp-a1hdci&tp=75886

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

More power is better and will make a difference if put to use, even just for momentary peaks, but will not make a difference if not put to use.

The 3070 and 7200's voltage, current, and power are as real as any similarly rated power amps.

Old myths, hearsay really die hard!!

I agree.

 

[lovinthehd]

This one I have been considering along with the Denon AVR-X7200W you mentioned. I would love to hear yours and anyones thoughts based on my wants:

Onkyo TX-RZ1100
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01KYANDIQ/?coliid=I3MWWWIZP3U1U4&colid=1C7HQXK72QV19&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

Also the Yamaha RX-A3070BL and Pioneer SC-LX701

Here's the bench test summary on the RZ1100....not much of a "200 wpc" amp section...and also Gibson (major stakeholder in Onkyo/Pioneer, and majority owner of Onkyo USA) has filed chapter 11 and apparently Onkyo could be cut loose so might just want to see how that sorts out, too.

I'd also stick to Marantz/Denon and Yamaha offerings. If you really want massive power then you should get an avr with pre-outs so that you have amplification options. Be nice to know just what your spl requirements are....might try using an spl calculator to get an idea of your power requirements.

 

[carlthess40]

What you need is a amp that can drive a 2 or 1 ohm loads , so it’s best that you use a HT receiver that has pre outputs and use separate amps
I have had many infinity speakers over the last 30 plus years. I’ve had the beta’s and irs and many others and they have the nick name { amp killers } I have great luck with carver krell and McIntosh and with any old school infinity speakers and YES you do need tons of power. At lest 150 watts as they at most have only a sensitivity of 86 to 89 dB