Things they want me to believe

[Speedskater]

........................................................
I don't remember Peter Aczel and Dr. Rich ever tested a Pass amp but Rich did publish his finding about different amp designs and audibility...........................................

David A. Rich, Ph.D. is still writing about hi-fi equipment.
https://hometheaterhifi.com/author/drich/

 

[mtrycrafts]

David A. Rich, Ph.D. is still writing about hi-fi equipment.
https://hometheaterhifi.com/author/drich/

Bookmarked, thanks.

 

[PENG]

My non tube amps sound completely different when warmed up. It's an obvious difference. And although I never would have actually thought, a heard a huge difference when I listened to different power cord on a system (not mine).

Just because you may not hear it doesn't mean it's not true

I bet there would have been 90% less back and forth if the following were done,

-use less extreme adverb than "completely"
-Define "warmed up", seconds, minutes etc.,..
-Delete the last sentence.

 

[lovinthehd]

What I find interesting is you'll trust anyone who agrees with you and no one who doesn't no matter their background

Could turn that around some, as it seems you're impressed by background or celebrity endorsements and trust those over tests that have not borne their opinions out?

 

[Zman7505]

Could turn that around some, as it seems you're impressed by background or celebrity endorsements and trust those over tests that have not borne their opinions out?

I don't ever recall listing any celebrities and I suppose paying attention to those who have a background in designing amplifiers for decades is just silly thinking.

 

[Zman7505]

I bet there would have been 90% less back and forth if the following were done,

-use less extreme adverb than "completely"
-Define "warmed up", seconds, minutes etc.,..
-Delete the last sentence.

Well they do sound Completely different
Warmed up is about an hour
And that last sentence is true on occasion

Perhaps if you used less sarcastic smilies I would take your post more seriously.

Especially since I've probably worked for or with some of the very manufacturers many people here use in their home.

 

[slipperybidness]

Well they do sound Completely different
Warmed up is about an hour
And that last sentence is true on occasion

Perhaps if you used less sarcastic smilies I would take your post more seriously.

Especially since I've probably worked for or with some of the very manufacturers many people here use in their home.

I think we need to be more accurate and precise than "warmed up".

"Thermal Equilibrium" is the proper technical term.

 

[Zman7505]

I think we need to be more accurate and precise than "warmed up".

"Thermal Equilibrium" is the proper technical term.

I like it, thank you.

 

[Mikado463]

I don't want just numbers. I need numbers to show there IS a difference, THEN one can listen and see if those numbers actually result in something audible. Often we can measure something and it does not translate into something meaningful. Other times we can hear things that numbers can't tell you.

It takes me at least a week to dial in my speaker positioning when I move things around or buy new speakers. I know my systems, I know my room, my ears, the material I use to evaluate, etc... and I can't say I've heard it. After 30min to an hour of listening, I am not really listening for that either though, but would it honestly be audible?

Another comment in the thread that quote came from said that Pass's designs may actually lend themselves specifically to this effect, as in the components he chooses and how the circuits are designed. So his recommendation for HIS products based on his experience with them may have some merit.

j, I gotta ask....... 'his recommendation for his products 'may' have some merit' ??

and to that I ask you, is there anyone on this forum that has more and or better credentials with respect to amplifier design and has given more to the DIY community than Nelson Pass ?

 

[Swerd]

That may very well be true for that design and possibly his designs in general. But it only tells us that his design (or designs) work that way. It says nothing about solid state amps with different designs, or solid state amps in general. And it doesn't tell us whether the improved distortion levels he measured when the amps had warmed. were audibly noticeable.

j, I gotta ask....... 'his recommendation for his products 'may' have some merit' ??

and to that I ask you, is there anyone on this forum that has more and or better credentials with respect to amplifier design and has given more to the DIY community than Nelson Pass ?

I made that comment (see the above quote). I wasn't commenting on Nelson Pass's amplifier design credentials in general. I intended to say only that Nelson Pass's amps may have been designed to have lower measured distortion levels when operating warm than when cold.

But my main point is that we simply do not know whether his design actually results in noticeably less distortion that a listener can hear. No listening test results are available that could answer that question. Lower levels of amp distortion, when measured with lab bench test gear, do not automatically mean less audible distortion.

 

[Mikado463]

j, I gotta ask....... 'his recommendation for his products 'may' have some merit' ??

and to that I ask you, is there anyone on this forum that has more and or better credentials with respect to amplifier design and has given more to the DIY community than Nelson Pass ?

I made that comment (see the above quote). I wasn't commenting on Nelson Pass's amplifier design credentials in general. I intended to say only that Nelson Pass's amps may have been designed to have lower measured distortion levels when operating warm than when cold.

But my main point is that we simply do not know whether his design actually results in noticeably less distortion that a listener can hear. No listening test results are available that could answer that question. Lower levels of amp distortion, when measured with lab bench test gear, do not automatically mean less audible distortion.

so if 'we' don't in fact know then why so much criticism for what is 'believed' ?

 

[Swerd]

so if 'we' don't in fact know then why so much criticism for what is 'believed' ?

In the absence of any evidence for or against something, a belief is no more than wishful thinking.

People can certainly believe what ever they want about magic audio cables. And they can spend what ever they want on those cables. But when they post their beliefs on a forum like Audioholics, I'll challenge them every time. There are many readers on AH who want to learn what is fact and what is fiction.

 

[j_garcia]

so if 'we' don't in fact know then why so much criticism for what is 'believed' ?

Problem is, neither we NOR Mr. Pass can verify, so we are at an impasse there.

 

[PENG]

Well they do sound Completely different
Warmed up is about an hour
And that last sentence is true on occasion

Perhaps if you used less sarcastic smilies I would take your post more seriously.

Especially since I've probably worked for or with some of the very manufacturers many people here use in their home.

My mistake, I meant the last sentence of the first paragraph, the part about the power cord thing . I didn't think those were "sarcastic smiles", I did mean for that to be a relaxing discussion. It's just a hobby, we can agree to disagree.

 

[Verdinut]

My non tube amps sound completely different when warmed up. It's an obvious difference. And although I never would have actually thought, a heard a huge difference when I listened to different power cord on a system (not mine).

Just because you may not hear it doesn't mean it's not true

If you can't hear a difference, why bother and spend money for no improvement in sound quality?
OH yeah! It costs more, so it has to sound better!

 

[Mikado463]

Problem is, neither we NOR Mr. Pass can verify, so we are at an impasse there.

you still didn't respond to my earlier question regarding Mr Pass ??

 

[Mikado463]

In the absence of any evidence for or against something, a belief is no more than wishful thinking.

bottom line.......you can't prove them 'wrong' !

People can certainly believe what ever they want about magic audio cables. And they can spend what ever they want on those cables. But when they post their beliefs on a forum like Audioholics, I'll challenge them every time. There are many readers on AH who want to learn what is fact and what is fiction.

while I for the most part agree, what cracks me up is when you say ......'when they post their beliefs on a forum like Audioholics' .....for Gods sake kid, what are you some kind of absolute being, get off your high horse. You do realize this is the internet don't you ?

 

[lovinthehd]

I don't ever recall listing any celebrities and I suppose paying attention to those who have a background in designing amplifiers for decades is just silly thinking.

Was referring to the conductors/musicians thing. Pass is fine talking about his own stuff I suppose, but the OP's unit is from another company (unless Pass did have a hand in that, dunno).

 

[mtrycrafts]

Problem is, neither we NOR Mr. Pass can verify, so we are at an impasse there.

One way perhaps is have the test gear on and measure quickly as power is turned on, then 30 minutes later. But, most likely the numbers will be stable in a few minutes before test completed.

And, to hear differences, ludicrous. memory is too short and cannot be repeated at least 10 time.

 

[mtrycrafts]

bottom line.......you can't prove them 'wrong' !



...

He needs to prove it as a fact, not hearsay, belief, or speculation that it is audible.