Things they want me to believe

[lovinthehd]

My point is I will take the word of an educated individual in their respective field of expertise. Not needing to see a schematic, frequency response or calibration data

What educated individuals are you talking about for the subjects being discussed here? If you want to ignore the other stuff, well, whatever.

 

[Zman7505]

It isn't that they hear things others don't, it is just a focus on specific things by someone who has the experience of listening for those things. Those people, just like the every day person, will also tend to focus on the specific things they're accustomed to listening for. That may make them better listeners, particularly in their specialization, but it doesn't necessarily make them hear "better". If you point those things out to ANYONE, likely they can pick them out too. Will a guitarist listen for the guitar or get the whole picture, you know what I mean?

I haven't played an instrument since I was young. That didn't make me an expert then, nor does it make me unable to hear "properly" today, now that I no longer play music.[/QUOTE

No it doesn't, but in your example, the person is a better listener. They can hear a difference that someone else can't. You just proved my discussion point.

 

[Zman7505]

What educated individuals are you talking about for the subjects being discussed here? If you want to ignore the other stuff, well, whatever.

Well the individual I posted was Nelson pass. Great guy and I would say very relevant to this discussion. He suggested my amps need to warm up but also stated he felt better performance power cords werent necessary I believe him on both points.

I believe each individual should test it for themselves, ideally with someone with experience. And if you dont feel it's worth it, return it. But blanket statements about these topics just causes division and at many times a sense of being personally attacked.

Let every one experience it for themselvets and we can eeach continue to do what we feel is best for our personal entertainment systems that we enjoy so much

 

[lovinthehd]

Well the individual I posted was Nelson pass. Great guy and I would say very relevant to this discussion. He suggested my amps need to warm up but also stated he felt better performance power cords werent necessary I believe him on both points.

I believe each individual should test it for themselves, ideally with someone with experience. And if you dont feel it's worth it, return it. But blanket statements about these topics just causes division and at many times a sense of being personally attacked.

Let every one experience it for themselvets and we can eeach continue to do what we feel is best for our personal entertainment systems that we enjoy so much

Yes, I saw that, fine he said something vague about measurements. Not very conclusive as has been pointed out. If you wish to believe in such, that's fine. If you wish to believe interconnects need break in because some musician thinks such, that's fine, too but pretty fantastic. Same for $140 "vibration control" stuff that's nothing special but if some "expert" like a half-assed reviewer says so (Ernie Fisher at The Inner Ear comes to mind). Or special after market power cords doing something because some other "expert" says so, or the efficacy of "cable lifters"....meh.

 

[Zman7505]

Yes, I saw that, fine he said something vague about measurements. Not very conclusive as has been pointed out. If you wish to believe in such, that's fine. If you wish to believe interconnects need break in because some musician thinks such, that's fine, too but pretty fantastic. Same for $140 "vibration control" stuff that's nothing special but if some "expert" like a half-assed reviewer says so (Ernie Fisher at The Inner Ear comes to mind). Or special after market power cords doing something because some other "expert" says so, or the efficacy of "cable lifters"....meh.

A perfect explanation of how much cynicism any individual can have about anything they simply refuse to believe. So as stated earlier, enjoy your system and all the best.

 

[lovinthehd]

A perfect explanation of how much cynicism any individual can have about anything they simply refuse to believe. So as stated earlier, enjoy your system and all the best.

The point is why base it on "belief" when it is science based? You believe in all that stuff that's been listed for this thread's discussion? Good luck with that.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Then both sides are true, everyone here is saying all those items are false with no reservations at all.

I wouldn't compare myself with a composer, conductor or musician, and they are trained and have experience in hearing small nuances in notes and compositions that the every day person would not the same holds true for these sorts of modifications.

If the individual doesn't know what to listen for or how to listen properly, if the equipment isn't up to par, if the room is poor than its easy to say something isn't occurring when so many obstacles are in the way.

There are people trained to design speakers and all they do is go out and listen to music in order to properly recreate the experience. You have world class chefs who can taste small differences in food or sommelier for wine. They're trained for that stuff

And then you have individuals who say that anyone who states these things are true give everyone else a bad name. That sort of black and white doesn't help determine what's occurring and only multiplies animosity and promotes confrontation.

Don't need to compare yourself to a conductor or a musician. They do not produce a better outcome in a DBT listening test. And, many of them actual hearing acuity issues from the very loud performances over the many years of their lives.
Both sided cannot be true.

As to wine they don't do well in DBT wine testing either.
I wonder how shefs do in DBT.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Education comes in many forms. Not just a degree. What happens when the actual person who designed the product states you should do this or that to improve sound? Like warming up the amp, what then ?

He is suspect unless it is a tube amp. And, they don't necessarily believe what they say to the golden ears.
It sells.

 

[Swerd]

And I would love to see that…

Toole and Olive have extensively studied many aspects of how to perform listening tests that allow making conclusions with useful statistical confidence levels. Search on Google for: Toole Olive experienced versus inexperienced listeners. You'll find abundant items to read. Several I thought were of interest:

https://books.google.com/books?id=tYXOAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA360&lpg=PA360&dq=Toole+and+Olive+experienced+versus+inexperienced+listeners&source=bl&ots=o5kKej61JZ&sig=o63V7dqOFy8eE7zf8Tdv4JEsEkg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjJ_q21j9TaAhVS3VMKHRjlBKg4ChDoAQgsMAE#v=onepage&q=Toole and Olive experienced versus inexperienced listeners&f=false

"These findings mean that if one wishes to obtain candid opinions about how a loudspeaker sounds, the test must be done blind. The good news is that if the appropriate controls are in place, experienced and inexperienced listeners of both genders are able to deliver useful opinions. Inexperienced listeners simply take longer, more repetitions, to produce the same confidence levels in their ratings."​

http://almainternational.org/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/Olive_and_Welti_Preferred_Bass_and_Treble_Levels.17132432.pdf

Sean Olive has taken those observations to the next step and asked how listeners may be trained so they arrive at statistically significant conclusions with fewer tries. He proposed and tested a method to train listeners:

http://web.arch.usyd.edu.au/~wmar0109/DESC9090/old/BechZach_doc/115_Tutorials/5 Listening Test Workshop_Listener Training (Olive).pdf

https://pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archive/15_Mfrs_Publications/Harman_Int'l/AES-Other_Publications/Trained_vs_Untrained_Listeners.pdf

… but the other question is, was it material they were accustomed to?

You've moved the goal posts. That delays arriving at any conclusions to this question, but it won't advance your side of the argument.

 

[Zman7505]

Toole and Olive have extensively studied many aspects of how to perform listening tests that allow making conclusions with useful statistical confidence levels. Search on Google for: Toole Olive experienced versus inexperienced listeners. You'll find abundant items to read. Several I thought were of interest:

https://books.google.com/books?id=tYXOAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA360&lpg=PA360&dq=Toole+and+Olive+experienced+versus+inexperienced+listeners&source=bl&ots=o5kKej61JZ&sig=o63V7dqOFy8eE7zf8Tdv4JEsEkg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjJ_q21j9TaAhVS3VMKHRjlBKg4ChDoAQgsMAE#v=onepage&q=Toole and Olive experienced versus inexperienced listeners&f=false

"These findings mean that if one wishes to obtain candid opinions about how a loudspeaker sounds, the test must be done blind. The good news is that if the appropriate controls are in place, experienced and inexperienced listeners of both genders are able to deliver useful opinions. Inexperienced listeners simply take longer, more repetitions, to produce the same confidence levels in their ratings."​

http://almainternational.org/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/Olive_and_Welti_Preferred_Bass_and_Treble_Levels.17132432.pdf

Sean Olive has taken those observations to the next step and asked how listeners may be trained so they arrive at statistically significant conclusions with fewer tries. He proposed and tested a method to train listeners:

http://web.arch.usyd.edu.au/~wmar0109/DESC9090/old/BechZach_doc/115_Tutorials/5 Listening Test Workshop_Listener Training (Olive).pdf

https://pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archive/15_Mfrs_Publications/Harman_Int'l/AES-Other_Publications/Trained_vs_Untrained_Listeners.pdf

You've moved the goal posts. That delays arriving at any conclusions to this question, but it won't advance your side of the argument.

No the posts haven't moved how can anyone be expected to discern something new when they are inexperienced or unfamiliar with what they are being tested on?

And I dont see how determining a person's personal preference for the quantity of bass is relevent in this discussion as per one of your links.

 

[Swerd]

Well the individual I posted was Nelson pass. Great guy and I would say very relevant to this discussion. He suggested my amps need to warm up but also stated he felt better performance power cords werent necessary I believe him on both points.

It took some time, but you've finally gotten to something specific, that the designer of your amp says they perform better when warm.

That may very well be true for that design and possibly his designs in general. But it only tells us that his design (or designs) work that way. It says nothing about solid state amps with different designs, or solid state amps in general. And it doesn't tell us whether the improved distortion levels he measured when the amps had warmed. were audibly noticeable.

 

[Zman7505]

Don't need to compare yourself to a conductor or a musician. They do not produce a better outcome in a DBT listening test. And, many of them actual hearing acuity issues from the very loud performances over the many years of their lives.
Both sided cannot be true.

As to wine they don't do well in DBT wine testing either.
I wonder how shefs do in DBT.

What I find interesting is you'll trust anyone who agrees with you and no one who doesn't no matter their background

 

[Zman7505]

It took some time, but you've finally gotten to something specific, that the designer of your amp says they perform better when warm.

That may very well be true for that design and possibly his designs in general. But it only tells us that his design (or designs) work that way. It says nothing about solid state amps with different designs, or solid state amps in general. And it doesn't tell us whether the improved distortion levels he measured when the amps had warmed. were audibly noticeable.

I neever stated it did, just providing an example that counted the universal claim so many people stating that it universally doesn't.

You got exactly to my point I'm not saying every single device and no one should ever generalize that much. I'm saying different products are different and may benefit fRom the very items the OP listed

 

[Zman7505]

Toole and Olive have extensively studied many aspects of how to perform listening tests that allow making conclusions with useful statistical confidence levels. Search on Google for: Toole Olive experienced versus inexperienced listeners. You'll find abundant items to read. Several I thought were of interest:

https://books.google.com/books?id=tYXOAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA360&lpg=PA360&dq=Toole+and+Olive+experienced+versus+inexperienced+listeners&source=bl&ots=o5kKej61JZ&sig=o63V7dqOFy8eE7zf8Tdv4JEsEkg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjJ_q21j9TaAhVS3VMKHRjlBKg4ChDoAQgsMAE#v=onepage&q=Toole and Olive experienced versus inexperienced listeners&f=false

"These findings mean that if one wishes to obtain candid opinions about how a loudspeaker sounds, the test must be done blind. The good news is that if the appropriate controls are in place, experienced and inexperienced listeners of both genders are able to deliver useful opinions. Inexperienced listeners simply take longer, more repetitions, to produce the same confidence levels in their ratings."​

http://almainternational.org/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/Olive_and_Welti_Preferred_Bass_and_Treble_Levels.17132432.pdf

Sean Olive has taken those observations to the next step and asked how listeners may be trained so they arrive at statistically significant conclusions with fewer tries. He proposed and tested a method to train listeners:

http://web.arch.usyd.edu.au/~wmar0109/DESC9090/old/BechZach_doc/115_Tutorials/5 Listening Test Workshop_Listener Training (Olive).pdf

https://pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archive/15_Mfrs_Publications/Harman_Int'l/AES-Other_Publications/Trained_vs_Untrained_Listeners.pdf

You've moved the goal posts. That delays arriving at any conclusions to this question, but it won't advance your side of the argument.

Loved the first article so I appreciate the link. Found it very interesting but I also believe that this study can't be seen as the holy grail of proof. I'm sure the experienced people lost some of their egos on that one

 

[Swerd]

I neever stated it did, just providing an example that counted the universal claim so many people stating that it universally doesn't.

You got exactly to my point I'm not saying every single device and no one should ever generalize that much. I'm saying different products are different and may benefit fRom the very items the OP listed

This question remains unanswered until someone shows that cold and warmed up amps like yours sound noticeably different through loudspeakers. This requires data from blind listening tests performed by the methods established by Toole and Olive.

Loved the first article so I appreciate the link. Found it very interesting but I also believe that this study can't be seen as the holy grail of proof. I'm sure the experienced people lost some of their egos on that one

I think that link is from Floyd E. Toole's book, Sound Reproduction The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms. It reviews most of the major findings of his career.

Toole and Olive are the first scientists who systematically examined how to do blind listening tests with humans and audio equipment, and what we could learn with their test results. No good scientist, including Toole and Olive would ever use the words "holy grail of proof". But so far, their work is the gold standard on this subject. It will remain so until others follow up, expanding on their findings, or refuting them.

 

[mtrycrafts]

What I find interesting is you'll trust anyone who agrees with you and no one who doesn't no matter their background

Facts matter. Present some and will be glad to change my standing on the issue.
People with great backgrounds have been known to go off the deep end. John Curl comes to mind
so does that twice Nobel winner Linus Pauling whent off the deep end on Vitamin C. And the list is not short.

 

[mtrycrafts]

... The good news is that if the appropriate controls are in place, experienced and inexperienced listeners of both genders are able to deliver useful opinions. Inexperienced listeners simply take longer, more repetitions, to produce the same confidence levels in their ratings."

...

Very telling indeed. An ego cruncher for sure.

 

[mtrycrafts]

It took some time, but you've finally gotten to something specific, that the designer of your amp says they perform better when warm.

That may very well be true for that design and possibly his designs in general. But it only tells us that his design (or designs) work that way. It says nothing about solid state amps with different designs, or solid state amps in general. And it doesn't tell us whether the improved distortion levels he measured when the amps had warmed. were audibly noticeable.

But, even the Pass design needs to be proven to be true, not just a story to tell. I don't remember Peter Aczel and Dr. Rich ever tested a Pass amp but Rich did publish his finding about different amp designs and audibility. The answer does not support golden ear tales.

 

[Bucknekked]

This question remains unanswered until someone shows that cold and warmed up amps like yours sound noticeably different through loudspeakers. This requires data from blind listening tests performed by the methods established by Toole and Olive.
I think that link is from Floyd E. Toole's book, Sound Reproduction The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms. It reviews most of the major findings of his career.

Toole and Olive are the first scientists who systematically examined how to do blind listening tests with humans and audio equipment, and what we could learn with their test results. No good scientist, including Toole and Olive would ever use the words "holy grail of proof". But so far, their work is the gold standard on this subject. It will remain so until others follow up, expanding on their findings, or refuting them.

Floyd's book is outstanding . I got the newest edition when it came out last year. It ought to be required reading for folks who want to argue the mysterious aspects of nebulous claims. If they read the book first, maybe there would be fewer of the far fetched claims.

Nah, on second thought, probably not. Far fetched is in some folks DNA

 

[PENG]

Well, never even heard of Burson but as I mentioned before, not a headphone guy at all. Large cable company? Which one? What was the purpose of raising speakers from the floor....to put tweeters at ear height or some decoupling nonsense? Rubber supports for an electronics box for $140! I have some amps that are rack style and didn't come with rubber feet, I just added those from my collection of such and no way would I spend $140 on something so simple. Power conditioners are mostly nonsense, as are after-market power cords. I think the novice should spend more time researching here than shopping and reading reviews?

Their marketing is good, manage to convince people to replace their op amps with theirs too.