Performance: One 12" sub or two 10" subs?

[joshk03]

I was able to compare a 12" Klipsch sub vs a 10" Klipsch sub at a Best Buy and the 12" definitely sounded better on a 1vs1 comparison. No doubt.
But with a 7.2 channel receiver in my future, I am wondering if a pair of 10" might outperform that single 12". Aside from the increased surface area you get with two 10's, I imagine one would follow left-channel and the other would follow the right-channel. Correct? Thoughts?

 

[Auditor55]

I was able to compare a 12" Klipsch sub vs a 10" Klipsch sub at a Best Buy and the 12" definitely sounded better on a 1vs1 comparison. No doubt.
But with a 7.2 channel receiver in my future, I am wondering if a pair of 10" might outperform that single 12". Aside from the increased surface area you get with two 10's, I imagine one would follow left-channel and the other would follow the right-channel. Correct? Thoughts?

Sighted comparisons of subs at best buy is a complete waste of time, which results are totally useless. I can't think of any other comparison that is as meaningless as the one you describe above. Having said that, most experts will tell you that having two subs are better than one, almost always.

 

[joshk03]

...most experts will tell you that having two subs are better than one, almost always.

Excellent, that's what I was guessing, but you confirmed it. Thank you.

 

[lovinthehd]

I was able to compare a 12" Klipsch sub vs a 10" Klipsch sub at a Best Buy and the 12" definitely sounded better on a 1vs1 comparison. No doubt.
But with a 7.2 channel receiver in my future, I am wondering if a pair of 10" might outperform that single 12". Aside from the increased surface area you get with two 10's, I imagine one would follow left-channel and the other would follow the right-channel. Correct? Thoughts?

Comparing in a store probably isn't telling you a lot, subs are very dependent on position/setup. Two subs give you more chance at smoothing room modes and does have an advantage in cone area in this case. Sub/LFE output is mono on an avr. Most recorded bass content below 80hz is mono, too. Not really worth chasing "stereo" subs IMO.

 

[Mikado463]

Room volume ? perhaps 2 12" subs would be the way to go. lovin's rationale makes complete sense.

 

[WaynePflughaupt]

I can’t check the specs because you didn’t give us any model numbers, but typically 12” subs dig deeper than 10” subs.

So to answer your question, it depends on your definition of “outperform.” All else being equal, two 10” subs will definitely play louder than a single 12-incher, but still won’t play deeper than the single 12” sub.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[joshk03]

Comparing in a store probably isn't telling you a lot, subs are very dependent on position/setup. Two subs give you more chance at smoothing room modes and does have an advantage in cone area in this case. Sub/LFE output is mono on an avr. Most recorded bass content below 80hz is mono, too. Not really worth chasing "stereo" subs IMO.

I had no idea dual-sub receivers just had 2 mono subs. Interesting.

Room volume ? perhaps 2 12" subs would be the way to go. lovin's rationale makes complete sense.

Well bigger is better Dual 12" would be great.

I can’t check the specs because you didn’t give us any model numbers, but typically 12” subs dig deeper than 10” subs.

So to answer your question, it depends on your definition of “outperform.” All else being equal, two 10” subs will definitely play louder than a single 12-incher, but still won’t play deeper than the single 12” sub.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

Here it is on the BestBuy website.
My idea of out-perform would be to go deeper. So you say two 10" subs can't go deeper than a 12"? I would have thought their combined efforts would move more air and go deeper.

 

[lovinthehd]

I had no idea dual-sub receivers just had 2 mono subs. Interesting.


Well bigger is better Dual 12" would be great.


Here it is on the BestBuy website.
My idea of out-perform would be to go deeper. So you say two 10" subs can't go deeper than a 12"? I would have thought their combined efforts would move more air and go deeper.

Most ".2" avrs just mean they have an internal splitter for the signal. Some of the higher end ones can adjust delay and level separately for each sub.

Dual 15s or 18s even better

Depends on the driver/box involved, can't just go by diameter (altho within the same product model line from Klipsch I'd say it's a safe bet the extension of the 12" is better). FWIW the R-112SW is a better model than the R-12SW....Klipsch has lots of similar sounding model numbers to add to the confusion....

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I had no idea dual-sub receivers just had 2 mono subs. Interesting.


Well bigger is better Dual 12" would be great.


Here it is on the BestBuy website.
My idea of out-perform would be to go deeper. So you say two 10" subs can't go deeper than a 12"? I would have thought their combined efforts would move more air and go deeper.

Even if you had 10 of them, they still won’t go as deep. F3 is f3. I’d buy the best 12(or 15) you can afford and start saving for a second one(if you have room, or need for a second.). Klipsch isn’t known for making great subwoofers either, so my advice would be look elsewhere. Multiple subs can balance bass over multiple seat. But it’s not a guarantee, and they have to be set up properly or you can do as much harm as good. If you only care about one seat, a single sub can be set up very well with careful placement and phase settings. I’d buy the best one you can and go from there.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Even if you had 10 of them, they still won’t go as deep. F3 is f3. I’d buy the best 12(or 15) you can afford and start saving for a second one(if you have room, or need for a second.). Klipsch isn’t known for making great subwoofers either, so my advice would be look elsewhere. Multiple subs can balance bass over multiple seat. But it’s not a guarantee, and they have to be set up properly or you can do as much harm as good. If you only care about one seat, a single sub can be set up very well with careful placement and phase settings. I’d buy the best one you can and go from there.

Also, the 12sw according to B.B. shows 29hz for the low end. Definitely NOT deep. HD is also correct about then 112 being better.

 

[snakeeyes]

You didn’t give the dimensions of the room or cubic feet and if it is closed or open to more rooms. Most would say for movie watching to get a single ported 12 sub or a sealed 15 sub and only add a 2nd sub if necessary later that is identical. (If you love bass you may end up with a larger sub later anyhow). Look at Rythmik and HSU and SVS and PSA. There are tons of reviews on this site for most of these. Not sure Klipsch is the way to go unless it is the 112 and you are getting a super amazing deal on it. At the end of the day as long as you love your system, you are doing it right.

 

[joshk03]

Most recorded bass content below 80hz is mono, too. Not really worth chasing "stereo" subs IMO.

I was thinking about this again and wondered if that's true for surround-sound movies because of a dedicated subwoofer track. But perhaps not for music. I'm not sure why they would tie dual subs to just the left speaker when they could just as easily feed one with right speaker audio. Just thinking out loud.

Klipsch isn’t known for making great subwoofers either, so my advice would be look elsewhere. Multiple subs can balance bass over multiple seat. But it’s not a guarantee, and they have to be set up properly or you can do as much harm as good. If you only care about one seat, a single sub can be set up very well with careful placement and phase settings. I’d buy the best one you can and go from there.

That's unfortunate because it's the only one I have heard in years.
The TV experience isn't what I am chasing, this would be liven up a large 32'x26' room with music. Rock, 80's, and some metal.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I was thinking about this again and wondered if that's true for surround-sound movies because of a dedicated subwoofer track. But perhaps not for music. I'm not sure why they would tie dual subs to just the left speaker when they could just as easily feed one with right speaker audio. Just thinking out loud.


That's unfortunate because it's the only one I have heard in years.
The TV experience isn't what I am chasing, this would be liven up a large 32'x26' room with music. Rock, 80's, and some metal.

Ok, well that changes it a little bit. Your comment to Wayne made think you were after better extension.
That’s a pretty big space. Big enough that I would not try and use any 10” subs in it. Is it concrete, or suspended floor? Didn’t see it above, do you have a budget in mind? As mentioned, Rythmik, SVS, HSU, etc offer much better value and performance.

 

[joshk03]

Ok, well that changes it a little bit. Your comment to Wayne made think you were after better extension.
That’s a pretty big space. Big enough that I would not try and use any 10” subs in it. Is it concrete, or suspended floor? Didn’t see it above, do you have a budget in mind? As mentioned, Rythmik, SVS, HSU, etc offer much better value and performance.

Well I care more about wide spectrum reproduction that volume. I listen to my music just above conversation levels. That volume is achievable with any system.
The floor is wood over a concrete pour. The ceilings are 10'. I am looking into those brands now. Thanks for backing up snakeeyes. It's always good to find agreement on a few brands.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Well I care more about wide spectrum reproduction that volume. I listen to my music just above conversation levels. That volume is achievable with any system.
The floor is wood over a concrete pour. The ceilings are 10'. I am looking into those brands now. Thanks for backing up snakeeyes. It's always good to find agreement on a few brands.

Lol We don’t always agree on all things here, but generally we do all agree that those brands represent great value. RSL is another rand that builds quality speakers, and actually one of the only 10” subs I would buy. I can’t say much(cause I don’t know yet) but they are finishing up something in a “larger” size. Questions about that can go to Joe Rodgers. He’s a great guy, and would gladly answer your questions.
Not making a plug, just sharing.
For the “wide spectrum” as you said, quality subwoofers will remain linear, and have much better control(damping) than a typical “speaker builder” sub. Bass is an investment, but worth it.
IMO...

 

[snakeeyes]

That’s a big space. Most people here would go with a ported 15 for that size space... But we are audioholics...

 

[joshk03]

That’s a big space. Most people here would go with a ported 15 for that size space... But we are audioholics...

In theory I like sealed speakers and subs because I imagine it improves clarity. Correct me if I'm wrong. I think of ported and bass-reflex speakers and subs as a trade off of getting higher volume while giving up some clarity.

 

[snakeeyes]

The HSU ULS15 would be a possible candidate to look at. Or even the Rythmik L22 dual sealed 12. But not sure I agree on ported not being equal in sound quality. My Rythmik LVX12 in my dedicated theater is ported and my L12 is sealed (it’s in my master bedroom system). Both have wonderful sound.

 

[shadyJ]

Correct me if I'm wrong. I think of ported and bass-reflex speakers and subs as a trade off of getting higher volume while giving up some clarity.

You're wrong. In some circumstances such as when the room gets a lot of gain in the low end, a ported sub with no calibration can get a major boost in the low end that can reach up to the 40's Hz range. That can potentially be heard as boominess but it is more of a room acoustic and calibration issue than a subwoofer issue. Output from a port or passive radiator does lag behind the driver output by a cycle, but that is not something you would notice unless the subwoofer were tuned very high. It certainly isn't something that is audible at 20 Hz. However, cheap crappy subs can have very high port tuning that can reach into the 50's, and there it might be a problem, but we are talking about crappy HTiB subs. The reality is that sealed subs can have much higher distortion in low frequencies than ported subs, and that will be a lot more audible than the phase delay of a port or passive radiator.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

In theory I like sealed speakers and subs because I imagine it improves clarity. Correct me if I'm wrong. I think of ported and bass-reflex speakers and subs as a trade off of getting higher volume while giving up some clarity.

This has not been my experience, but it’s different for everyone. The room and integration are very important. The sealed/ported thing goes back to early car audio days when drivers and motor structures were mismatched to crummy boxes. Today’s subs use much better drivers than were ever available then. For me, sealed is only relevant for space constraints. Some say sealed plus room gain is what you need for chasing super deep extension, but the reality is it takes around 4 sealed subs to equal the LF output of ported. And, the amount of power and excursion is very high, and the price is distortion. Group delay is another dagger that gets thrown at ported subs but it’s normally really far down in the frequency range as to not be a factor in music.