The SEPARATES vs. AVR Thread

[Mikado463]

So what. That doesn't translate into better sound from the expensive amps.

LOL, you missed the point young man, I was speaking to the other 'intrinsic' values. Learn to read the whole storyline first.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Sounds like an HK AVR20...
Built by Inkel/Sherwood equivalent to their 5030 which was awarded AVR of the year back in 1994.
Sold >150K units well built in its day..

Just my $0.02..

I think it is.

They don't built like that anymore?

What a shame.

By the way, do you see any numbers of Pre-pros getting shipped for repairs?

 

[Mikado463]

Common audiophile fallacy that something costing more will sound better. Take Wilson speakers as an example of over priced garbage!

you obviously missed the point........ I was speaking to the 'other' parameters........

as for the Wilson speakers being garbage ?? if so, what do yours constitute ?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Some folk apparently stroke their electronics frequently to "feel" the quality!

LMAO. I was wondering about that.

 

[Mikado463]

LMAO. I was wondering about that.

agreed and then there's those of us that can 'hear' it !

 

[lovinthehd]

....or those who claim they can.

 

[Irvrobinson]

If that build quality means longer lasting without issues then great, if not, then what are you really getting?

Don't get me wrong, I'm all about high build quality. The higher the better, but I'm also a function over form guy. I don't care if it's pretty if it gets the job done...don't tell my wife...

A good part of what you're getting lately is esthetics. Look, feel, solidarity, smoothness of functions, ergonomics, finish quality. For example, when I ordered the Emotiva ERC-2 CD player I planned to use in place of the Mark Levinson No39 that I was selling, I got to compare the two side-by-side. On paper, they should have been comparable. Both even had a lot of machined aluminum, including the remotes, but beyond that there was no comparison. If all of the criteria I just mentioned were important, the ML blew the Emotiva away in every usability regard. A child would have noticed the build quality, design quality, implementation, and feel differences. Where the ML was intuitive, the Emotiva was annoying. I sold the Emotiva after less than three months. (Oh yeah, and it was delivered defective.)

(Why did I sell the ML CD Player? - because it fried some key components on its digital board, which cost about $1400 to replace. I wasn't impressed. After I had it fixed I sold very ML component I had, because I just wasn't in the mood anymore.)

So if nothing on list means anything to you, then you're not in the target market, and that's all there is to it. I currently use a Tascam CD player as a digital drive, and it is truly junk by comparison to the ML, but the replacement cost will be $300 if it breaks. I suppose I fell out of the target market for high-end electronics. But I still understand it.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

agreed and then there's those of us that can 'hear' it !

Do you take any meds for that?

 

[Mikado463]

....or those who claim they can.

i assume you can't ........

 

[lovinthehd]

i assume you can't ........

Can't in the sense I'd need to drive several hundred miles to listen to such to try again. Just saying a lot of people make claims about high end audio...many of them old men with poor hearing. I'm old now so I'm probably not the best judge, felt I had great hearing long ago when I got into this stuff, tho I didn't spend a lot of time with the high end gear simply because it wasn't affordable. I'll spend a lot more on bicycles than audio, tho

 

[M Code]

I think it is.

They don't built like that anymore?

What a shame.

By the way, do you see any numbers of Pre-pros getting shipped for repairs?

Nope, never dug deeper for the #s....
Back in the middle 1990s, 65% of all Dolby surround AVRs were built by Inkel/Sherwood...
They built for all of the primary brands including Kenwood, Marantz, Denon, Fisher, Sony, NAD, Teac, Philips, Harman/Kardon, JBL. The Inkel/Sherwood AVRs were highly rated and had many significant features including the 1st AVR with DTS...



Just my $0.02...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

(Why did I sell the ML CD Player? - because it fried some key components on its digital board, which cost about $1400 to replace.

$1400 to replace a circuit board on a CD player. That sounds excruciating.

I've seen $100 CD players that lasted 25 Years.

As already mentioned, high-end is expected to last longer. But it's definitely not a guarantee.

I think some of my friends mentioned something about the circuit or digital boards also on their high-end separates.

It makes them wonder why they paid high dollar for things that may not last any longer than some of these cheaper electronics.

 

[Irvrobinson]

$1400 to replace a circuit board on a CD player. That sounds excruciating.

I was not pleased.

I've seen $100 CD players that lasted 25 Years.

As already mentioned, high-end is expected to last longer. But it's definitely not a guarantee.

I think some of my friends mentioned something about the circuit or digital boards also on their high-end separates.

It makes them wonder why they paid high dollar for things that may not last any longer than some of these cheaper electronics.

High-end products tend to be more complicated than mass-market stuff, meaning there are more electronic components in the design, and a greater number of components usually reduces the mean time before failure. I also believe that Madrigal Labs, the maker of the Levinson brand at the time, was cutting corners on some components to help their bottom line. For example, the 300-series of amplifiers (334/335/336) used some less than stellar power supply capacitors, and they often failed after 10 ten years, rather than the more usual 20-25 years. ("Re-capping" one of those amps is at least $1K each, and for a 336 quite a bit more.) Cheaper amps use less power supply smoothing capacity, so better caps are inherently cheaper, so less ambitious amps sometimes out-last grander designs. Also, high-bias current amps dissipate more heat, which cooks the caps too, and caps hate heat. High end design can be a slippery slope.

Keep in mind, when people buy expensive components they don't know they may or may not last longer, and many cheaper products have annoying failure rates too.

 

[panteragstk]

A good part of what you're getting lately is esthetics. Look, feel, solidarity, smoothness of functions, ergonomics, finish quality. For example, when I ordered the Emotiva ERC-2 CD player I planned to use in place of the Mark Levinson No39 that I was selling, I got to compare the two side-by-side. On paper, they should have been comparable. Both even had a lot of machined aluminum, including the remotes, but beyond that there was no comparison. If all of the criteria I just mentioned were important, the ML blew the Emotiva away in every usability regard. A child would have noticed the build quality, design quality, implementation, and feel differences. Where the ML was intuitive, the Emotiva was annoying. I sold the Emotiva after less than three months. (Oh yeah, and it was delivered defective.)

(Why did I sell the ML CD Player? - because it fried some key components on its digital board, which cost about $1400 to replace. I wasn't impressed. After I had it fixed I sold very ML component I had, because I just wasn't in the mood anymore.)

So if nothing on list means anything to you, then you're not in the target market, and that's all there is to it. I currently use a Tascam CD player as a digital drive, and it is truly junk by comparison to the ML, but the replacement cost will be $300 if it breaks. I suppose I fell out of the target market for high-end electronics. But I still understand it.

I can appreciate what you're saying. I guess to me I'm function over form just due to the fact that I've never been in the market for anything truly "high end". I keep my stuff until it breaks so if I were to have a sort of "dream rig" then I'd look into High End pieces. Price is a big factor with me. I'm also not one to shy away from used gear (with the right owner) so if I came across something then I'd jump on it.

I'd love to compare some higher end stuff to my own, but I'm not in a position to do that. That's where a lot of my mindset comes from. If I were in a different position, I'd probably have a different mindset.

I've demoed some very high end stuff (Classe, BMW 800 series) and was very impressed. Couldn't get past the dollar amount it'd take me to get into it. Just didn't seem worth it. Again, my mindset, not trying to say people are spending their money incorrectly. I'd never want to come off that way.

That's one reason I'm a big DIY guy. I could pay someone to build the custom furniture my wife wants, but I can do it so I do. Same with speakers once I get time. I'll build something that will cost me ~$900 in materials, but would cost me $4k to buy. Big difference to me. I obviously wouldn't be able to do that with an amp or pre-amp so I buy what is the best for the money I have to spend. For me, that was a Denon 4300h.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

LOL, you missed the point young man, I was speaking to the other 'intrinsic' values. Learn to read the whole storyline first.

There is no value in high-priced components that sound no better than mainstream receivers.

 

[sterling shoote]

I was not pleased.



High-end products tend to be more complicated than mass-market stuff, meaning there are more electronic components in the design, and a greater number of components usually reduces the mean time before failure. I also believe that Madrigal Labs, the maker of the Levinson brand at the time, was cutting corners on some components to help their bottom line. For example, the 300-series of amplifiers (334/335/336) used some less than stellar power supply capacitors, and they often failed after 10 ten years, rather than the more usual 20-25 years. ("Re-capping" one of those amps is at least $1K each, and for a 336 quite a bit more.) Cheaper amps use less power supply smoothing capacity, so better caps are inherently cheaper, so less ambitious amps sometimes out-last grander designs. Also, high-bias current amps dissipate more heat, which cooks the caps too, and caps hate heat. High end design can be a slippery slope.

Keep in mind, when people buy expensive components they don't know they may or may not last longer, and many cheaper products have annoying failure rates too.

Before you can get folks to part with $20,000 for an ML Preamp, it has to be dressed up to look and feel like it's worth $20,000, whether or not it adds to the performance of the product is moot; but, for sure, it adds to the cost, as well as customer satisfaction.

 

[Mikado463]

Can't in the sense I'd need to drive several hundred miles to listen to such to try again. Just saying a lot of people make claims about high end audio...

that's why I asked some time ago what ones definition was of 'high end' , only got one response. IMO, the definition varies by the individual. Just because one decides to go the separate route does not make it the high end.

many of them old men with poor hearing. I'm old now so I'm probably not the best judge,

me too .....

I'll spend a lot more on bicycles than audio, tho

see, we all get to pick our 'poison' ! I ride a 'AVR' when it come to bikes, an 'affordable' Cannondale !

 

[Mikado463]

There is no value in high-priced components that sound no better than mainstream receivers.

enjoy your Bose wave radio, you're 'out of phase' alright !

 

[lovinthehd]

that's why I asked some time ago what ones definition was of 'high end' , only got one response. IMO, the definition varies by the individual. Just because one decides to go the separate route does not make it the high end.



me too .....



see, we all get to pick our 'poison' ! I ride a 'AVR' when it come to bikes, an 'affordable' Cannondale !

LOL a good ol' crack'n'fail, eh? Too bad Joe and his son tried to get in the moto market and had to sell.

Yes, the definition of high end (which I gave you back a ways) would vary with individual and what aesthetics they desire (aesthetics aren't important as long as it's black in my case). Just got my "high end" Oppo tho....now to see if it has better audio or video than what I've used before....certainly a nice black box, tho.

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

enjoy your Bose wave radio, you're 'out of phase' alright !

No Bose here. Enjoy your ignorance of science.