Subwoofer Level low

[Borabis]

Hi.
It appears that my subwoofer level gain is low. The reason i believe this is that after running audyssey i found that my other speakers sounded dull. And during the audyssey test tones the other speakers were louder than the subwoofers test tones.
I looked at the manual settings under levels and saw that audyssey had set my main channels to -5 each and my center channel to -10 and the subwoofer to +4. Under that menu when the test tones were playing i had to turn the volume up to 60 just to hear anything coming out of the subwoofer. Not the case with my other speakers.

I'm running a Denon AVR-x1400H and my subwoofer is a definitive tech Prosub1000, i have the crossover on the sub turned all the way up to max at 150HZ and the volume at the halfway mark. Have the speakers set to small and the crossovers at 80hz.

This is my first Denon receiver so i was hoping someone with experience with these receivers could tell me if there is something i'm doing wrong or do i have a defective sub or receiver.

Thanks

 

[lovinthehd]

Your interpretation of test tones isn't quite there. If Audyssey set your sub gain to +5 that simply means the gain on the sub is a bit low. The different levels set for the rest of the speakers are reflecting different distances/sensitivity levels.

 

[lovinthehd]

You could raise the sub gain a bit and rerun Audyssey and aim for zero or below, but not to the lowest level, above that is fine.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

What are the speakers? The negative values normally just represent that the speakers are very sensitive(easy to drive). As HD mentioned, the positive value set for the sub just means the gain on the sub needs to be turned up and Audyssey rerun. A typical setting is usually between -5 and O. After running Audyssey, most of us will give the sub trim a 2-5db bump to taste, but if you have dynamicEq on, it might be obnoxious. Ive read that positive values can introduce clipping/distortion into the signal, but never actually measured. Also, ears are not useful in evaluating the output levels of test tones so at the very least, you’d need an spl meter if you wanted to tweak manually. I don’t believe in phone apps since the mics roll off unpredictably(unless you buy expensive apps, which are largely of unknown quality).

 

[Borabis]

Your interpretation of test tones isn't quite there. If Audyssey set your sub gain to +5 that simply means the gain on the sub is a bit low. The different levels set for the rest of the speakers are reflecting different distances/sensitivity levels.

Thanks for the explanation,i had thought that the reason for the wild level setting swings from my front three channels and my subwoofer was because the sub test tone was so low that audyssey was trying to compensate for that fact. I did find that when i set my mains to 0 instead of minus 5 and my center to -2 instead of -10 i got better sound from the receiver. Still curious as to why when i tried to set the levels manually the subwoofer test tone was pretty much inaudable at the 45 volume setting where as the rest of the speakers were easily heard. I will try and raise my subwoofer volume to the 7 oclock position and rerun Audyssey as you suggested.

Thank you for your help

 

[Borabis]

What are the speakers? The negative values normally just represent that the speakers are very sensitive(easy to drive). As HD mentioned, the positive value set for the sub just means the gain on the sub needs to be turned up and Audyssey rerun. A typical setting is usually between -5 and O. After running Audyssey, most of us will give the sub trim a 2-5db bump to taste, but if you have dynamicEq on, it might be obnoxious. Ive read that positive values can introduce clipping/distortion into the signal, but never actually measured. Also, ears are not useful in evaluating the output levels of test tones so at the very least, you’d need an spl meter if you wanted to tweak manually. I don’t believe in phone apps since the mics roll off unpredictably(unless you buy expensive apps, which are largely of unknown quality).

Hi the speakers are andrew jones Pioneer SP-BS22LR for my two main channels and the pioneer SP-C22 for the center,these are not very sensitive speakers with an 85 db sensitivity. I do have all speakers very close to the listening position ,at no more than 7-8 feet so this might be coming into play.

 

[lovinthehd]

How are the speakers placed? Have a pic?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Wow, that is a pretty close distance. I would say that is one cause for the numbers. I didn’t realize some receivers still use the master volume to output tones. IME when the test tones are selected, they’re output at a constant level which is right around 75db, then you can tweak depending on where the number actually is.
The subwoofer will sound lower to the ear when running tones, so don’t sweat that too much. It’s just a function of human hearing sensitivity.
Gotta “hop” over to Gramma’s...

 

[Borabis]

How are the speakers placed? Have a pic?

The two main channels are roughly 6 or so feet apart and 1 foot from the back wall,the center channel is between the two main channels under my tv. And the sub is placed in the left hand corner of the room.

 

[Borabis]

Wow, that is a pretty close distance. I would say that is one cause for the numbers. I didn’t realize some receivers still use the master volume to output tones. IME when the test tones are selected, they’re output at a constant level which is right around 75db, then you can tweak depending on where the number actually is.
The subwoofer will sound lower to the ear when running tones, so don’t sweat that too much. It’s just a function of human hearing sensitivity.
Gotta “hop” over to Gramma’s...

Yes ,this is temporary until i move into the new house. Patience is not a virtue i have. could not stand not trying the receiver out .It was just mocking me sitting in it's box brand new .Had to try it.
Thanks for taking time from your easter sunday to help out.

 

[Borabis]

here is a picture

 

[Andrein]

Had the same problem with my 2 svs sb2000 subs. When i started with gain kbob at 12 o clock, room correction set my speakers at -8db and sub +10db. I started gradually increase gain. Settled on 70% approx (2 o clock or so). Now speakers are at about 0db +-1db and sub -6db after running room correction. Try to increase gain as HD suggested and rerun room correction. It is all not about absolute numbers but about how apeakers compare to each other and subs. You should aim for speakers to be around zero and subs at around -6-5db as was already mentioned after eq. Then you can adjust manually.

 

[Borabis]

adjusted gain on the subwoofer to the two oclock position as well and now i'm sitting at -5 db for the subwoofer but also -4.5 to -5 for my main channels and -8.5 for the center

 

[yepimonfire]

Might want to pick up an spl meter that does c weighting and double check. Room correction software, even audyssey, doesn't always get the levels or distance right. I'd change the volume control in the setup menu to relative, then adjust to 0dB. Set all speakers to 75dB C weighted and the sub to ~71-72dB.

Sent from my LM-X210(G) using Tapatalk

 

[Borabis]

Might want to pick up an spl meter that does c weighting and double check. Room correction software, even audyssey, doesn't always get the levels or distance right. I'd change the volume control in the setup menu to relative, then adjust to 0dB. Set all speakers to 75dB C weighted and the sub to ~71-72dB.

Sent from my LM-X210(G) using Tapatalk

Thank you, i will pick one up later this week and do what you suggested,although the sound i'm getting is pretty damn good since redoing audyssey.

 

[lovinthehd]

Had the same problem with my 2 svs sb2000 subs. When i started with gain kbob at 12 o clock, room correction set my speakers at -8db and sub +10db. I started gradually increase gain. Settled on 70% approx (2 o clock or so). Now speakers are at about 0db +-1db and sub -6db after running room correction. Try to increase gain as HD suggested and rerun room correction. It is all not about absolute numbers but about how apeakers compare to each other and subs. You should aim for speakers to be around zero and subs at around -6-5db as was already mentioned after eq. Then you can adjust manually.

Though IIRC you use a Yamaha unit with YPAO, which is different. The sub and speakers have an interchange in YPAO from what I've read. Audyssey the subs' level are handled separately unless the implementation in the 1400X is different from the three Audyssey avrs (two Denons and an Onkyo) that I use. Curious, tho, on your unit do speaker levels change if you manually change sub level after running YPAO?

@Borabis Now with the info about the speakers and placement in mind I don't understand the particular settings made, nor why they changed that much with one more run of Audyssey by only changing sub gain. Makes me wonder if Denon made some changes or there's something we're missing in how you ran Audyssey or if there's something wrong with the avr....

I've verified with my own units that sub level is set independently from speakers by wildly varying the starting sub level (which is manually set before the microphone run on all my Audyssey-equipped units), you set sub level to approx 75dB and you can vary it a bit depending on gain level on the sub. Speaker levels have not changed when I've done so...they work out fairly well along the lines of distance and the sensitivity of the speakers....

 

[lovinthehd]

Thank you, i will pick one up later this week and do what you suggested,although the sound i'm getting is pretty damn good since redoing audyssey.

SPL meters are not very good audio tools in the larger sense, if you really want to measure get a measurement mic (a usb mic like the Dayton UMM-6 or the miniDSP Umik-1). It can perform as an spl meter and so much more....for not a significant additional amount of money (assuming you have a pc that can run software like RoomEQ Wizard, aka REW).

 

[lovinthehd]

Thank you, i will pick one up later this week and do what you suggested,although the sound i'm getting is pretty damn good since redoing audyssey.

Well that's good Testing an avr before you move is a good idea, as it keeps your return options optimal....

 

[Borabis]

Though IIRC you use a Yamaha unit with YPAO, which is different. The sub and speakers have an interchange in YPAO from what I've read. Audyssey the subs' level are handled separately unless the implementation in the 1400X is different from the three Audyssey avrs (two Denons and an Onkyo) that I use. Curious, tho, on your unit do speaker levels change if you manually change sub level after running YPAO?

@Borabis Now with the info about the speakers and placement in mind I don't understand the particular settings made, nor why they changed that much with one more run of Audyssey by only changing sub gain. Makes me wonder if Denon made some changes or there's something we're missing in how you ran Audyssey or if there's something wrong with the avr....

I've verified with my own units that sub level is set independently from speakers by wildly varying the starting sub level (which is manually set before the microphone run on all my Audyssey-equipped units), you set sub level to approx 75dB and you can vary it a bit depending on gain level on the sub. Speaker levels have not changed when I've done so...they work out fairly well along the lines of distance and the sensitivity of the speakers....

besides the subwoofer going from a +5 to -5 which i thought would happen when increasing the sub gain from 50% to 70% .it appears that the only other real change came from the center channel going from -10 to -8.5. The receiver seems to be working fine ,hopefully it will continue to. Could be very well i did something wrong during the first calibration.

I want to thank all of you for your help it was greatly appreciated.

 

[lovinthehd]

besides the subwoofer going from a +5 to -5 which i thought would happen when increasing the sub gain from 50% to 70% .it appears that the only other real change came from the center channel going from -10 to -8.5. The receiver seems to be working fine ,hopefully it will continue to. Could be very well i did something wrong during the first calibration.

I want to thank all of you for your help it was greatly appreciated.

Hard to know if you placed the mic identically...are you using all the mic measurement positions?