NAD 9060 as home theater amp, avr for affordable pre/pro?

[chilepastor]

Hi Folks,
I was just gifted a NAD 9060. I am thinking this gives me a great path towards a better sounding home theater set-up than most AVRs (which is what I've always had). My current AVR is a NAD 744. It is lacking in connectivity (no HDMI).
I have looked at a few surround pre/pros and so far am running out of budget. But if I look at a newer AVR with pre-outs it looks like I can have my updated connectivity and still make good use of the 9060; I'm assuming it will be a superior amp to most AVRs.
For example, ideally, I thought I would want a NAD T187 (to connect to the 9060), but I still can't afford them new and haven't found a used one I can afford. I have found NAD T175 that I can afford. But perhaps one of you will steer me away from NAD to a different/better surround pre/pro that I can still afford?
However, HT receivers getting good reviews, with pre-outs, are very much within my budget. ( I would like to spend less than $600). Perhaps that is the best way to utilize the 9060?

My speakers are Paradigm Monitor 7s (second gen). Paradigm surrounds. My sub is a Klipsch Sub 12. Speaker upgrades will slowly follow after this power upgrade.
Suggestions?
Is the 9060 not as big a win or great starting point as I'd imagined?

 

[TLS Guy]

Hi Folks,
I was just gifted a NAD 9060. I am thinking this gives me a great path towards a better sounding home theater set-up than most AVRs (which is what I've always had). My current AVR is a NAD 744. It is lacking in connectivity (no HDMI).
I have looked at a few surround pre/pros and so far am running out of budget. But if I look at a newer AVR with pre-outs it looks like I can have my updated connectivity and still make good use of the 9060; I'm assuming it will be a superior amp to most AVRs.
For example, ideally, I thought I would want a NAD T187 (to connect to the 9060), but I still can't afford them new and haven't found a used one I can afford. I have found NAD T175 that I can afford. But perhaps one of you will steer me away from NAD to a different/better surround pre/pro that I can still afford?
However, HT receivers getting good reviews, with pre-outs, are very much within my budget. ( I would like to spend less than $600). Perhaps that is the best way to utilize the 9060?

My speakers are Paradigm Monitor 7s (second gen). Paradigm surrounds. My sub is a Klipsch Sub 12. Speaker upgrades will slowly follow after this power upgrade.
Suggestions?
Is the 9060 not as big a win or great starting point as I'd imagined?

The NAD has decent specs, but I suspect its performance will be similar to higher end AVRs.

How many HDMI inputs do you need?

I do have a Marantz 8003 per/pro that I would be prepared to sell you for $425.00 That is about 1/6 of the new price. It is 8 years old, but has been in a well grounded system, in a home with whole house surge protection and the unit was always powered from a rack mounted APC UPS which kept voltage tightly controlled and switched to battery for power outage and unstable grid situations. In severe weather this home switches to an auto start 15 KW generator. It has 4 HDMI inputs. It is in perfect working order.

So this unit has never been abused and had tightly controlled powering. There is not a mark on it and it still has all accessories and original instruction manual. I took it out of service very recently.

If you are interested I can take more pictures.

I have it sitting in our best spare bedroom. My wife wants it gone, so it needs a new home. So it needs a good home. I am the original owner by the way. It was purchased from Hi-Fi Sound in Minneapolis.

I personally have a preference for pre/pros over receiver preouts for driving external amps.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

80W into 6 ohms is probably more like 60W into 8 ohms. More comparable to a $600 AVR.

A higher end AVR would be more like 150W into 8 ohms.

 

[TLS Guy]

80W into 6 ohms is probably more like 60W into 8 ohms. More comparable to a $600 AVR.

A higher end AVR would be more like 150W into 8 ohms.

Yes, but the NAD is all 6 channels driven continuously.

 

[lovinthehd]

The NAD amp spec doesn't compare all that well to this $600 avr amp section https://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/denon-avr-x3300w-1/measurements, and looks to be less at 4 ohm

The NAD avr amp section he has now isn't all that different from the 9060 it seems. Doubt there is anything particular to be had by having the NAD amp as external....

Yes, but the NAD is all 6 channels driven continuously.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yes, but the NAD is all 6 channels driven continuously.

The Denon X1000 series (which you can get on sale for $300) can output about 60W x all 7 Ch Continuously into 8 ohms.

The Denon X3000 series (which you can get on sale for $600) can Output 80W x all 7 Ch into 8 ohms Continuously.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-x1200w-av-receiver-review

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-x3400h-av-receiver-review-test-bench

So there is absolutely nothing special about 60W x 6 Ch into 8 ohms continuously.

With that said, since the NAD was a gift - no looking at the gift horse...

It’s not bad, but just saying it’s equivalent to a Denon X1000 series, which you can get on sale for about $300.

A high-end AVR can output about 170W x 7 Ch Continuously into 8 ohms, not 60W.

A high-end AVR can also output about 340W x 2Ch into 4 ohms. I doubt this NAD amp can output 340W x 2Ch into 4 ohms.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-5308ci-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Denon/Marantz make dedicated external amps just like other amp companies.

And they put these amps inside AVRs.

So there is absolutely no reason to believe amps inside AVRs are inferior to external amps.

And to put this notion (that AVR amps are inferior) to rest, here are some measurements to prove it.

As you can see, a lowly Denon 3000 series AVR passed the 1-ohm torture test @ 1%THD by producing 170W. The ARCAM produced only 46W at double the THD%.

AVTech Miller Audio Research Lab Results

Denon 3805:
Dynamic Power Output into 1 ohms: 170W (1%THD) x 2 Ch
http://www.milleraudioresearch.com/download/reports/aug04/denonavr3805.html

Arcam P1 Monoblock Amp:
Dynamic Power Output into 1 ohms: 46W (2%THD)
http://www.milleraudioresearch.com/download/reports/nov04/arcamp1.html

 

[TLS Guy]

Denon/Marantz make dedicated external amps just like other amp companies.

And they put these amps inside AVRs.

So there is absolutely no reason to believe amps inside AVRs are inferior to external amps.

And to put this notion (that AVR amps are inferior) to rest, here are some measurements to prove it.

As you can see, a lowly Denon 3000 series AVR passed the 1-ohm torture test @ 1%THD by producing 170W. The ARCAM produced only 46W at double the THD%.

AVTech Miller Audio Research Lab Results

Denon 3805:
Dynamic Power Output into 1 ohms: 170W (1%THD) x 2 Ch
http://www.milleraudioresearch.com/download/reports/aug04/denonavr3805.html

Arcam P1 Monoblock Amp:
Dynamic Power Output into 1 ohms: 46W (2%THD)
http://www.milleraudioresearch.com/download/reports/nov04/arcamp1.html

There are other issues as well though. Receivers often have a shorter life and become obsolete. They generally have a much shorter life than a good power amp. When you have to ditch the receiver for what ever reason you loose your power amps.

There are multiple reasons that I would never consider a receiver in a decent system, not just measurements. As you know I'm philosophically opposed to the whole receiver concept.

 

[chilepastor]

Thank you all for your comments, and especially to TLS Guy for the Marantz offer. You have an amazing setup. I guess I got overexcited about the gift. Definitely misunderstood the power as 80w in 8ohms. I'll find some other application for it - seems many use it for outdoor speakers. Anyway my $600 can still buy me a nice upgrade from what I have now. Grateful for the ideas.

 

[chilepastor]

TLS Guy, your point about losing the amps when the AVR is out of date is exactly the pinch I'm feeling now. AcuDefTechGuy would probably say AVRs are inexpensive for what they deliver. If I set aside more $ for a better amp, that might be something I could use for 20 years (which is an idea I really like). However, I'd still be buying new pre/pro as technology changes - and that seems no different than buying a new AVR - probably as, or more, expensive. Will give it all more thought.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Thank you all for your comments, and especially to TLS Guy for the Marantz offer. You have an amazing setup. I guess I got overexcited about the gift. Definitely misunderstood the power as 80w in 8ohms. I'll find some other application for it - seems many use it for outdoor speakers. Anyway my $600 can still buy me an nice upgrade from what I have now. Grateful for the ideas.

Well, don't get me wrong. It's a $1,500 gift. So it's good.

And 60W into 8 ohms x 6 Ch isn't bad. It will drive most speakers in most rooms.

I used to own a 50WPC AVR that drove 5 big speakers just fine in a 15x17x15 room.

So 60WPC into 8 ohms is not bad.

 

[chilepastor]

Well, don't get me wrong. It's a $1,500 gift. So it's good.

And 60W into 8 ohms x 6 Ch isn't bad. It will drive most speakers in most rooms.

I used to own a 50WPC AVR that drove 5 big speakers just fine in a 15x17x15 room.

So 60WPC into 8 ohms is not bad.

Now here's a thought, since I'm trying to think how to use this 9060. This gift is just prompting me to spend more money, but it may still play a useful role. I wonder if it would be worth buying a more powerful stereo amp, just for my fronts, and let the 9060 power all other channels? Then I'm still looking at buying a pre/pro (and having to upgrade that occasionally). But theoretically I'd have a power setup that could work for me for a long time. Is it crazy to have a separate amp for fronts and another for center & surrounds?

 

[lovinthehd]

Now here's a thought, since I'm trying to think how to use this 9060. This gift is just prompting me to spend more money, but it may still play a useful role. I wonder if it would be worth buying a more powerful stereo amp, just for my fronts, and let the 9060 power all other channels? Then I'm still looking at buying a pre/pro (and having to upgrade that occasionally). But theoretically I'd have a power setup that could work for me for a long time. Is it crazy to have a separate amp for fronts and another for center & surrounds?

Lots of people do that, or just have a power amp for the fronts and use an avr for the surrounds. Whatever combo of gear works for you. One morbid thought...I don't think about gear lasting 20 years out any more....cuz I won't be around to appreciate it (either I'll be gone or my hearing will be).

TLS' 8003 is a bit dated on codec/hdmi, just what do you want to connect via hdmi? Need the latest 4k tech? Atmos or other immersive tech?

 

[chilepastor]

Since I have this 9060 I'd like to use it, and it should be adequate power for surrounds & center for theater. But I know I will want/need more power for the fronts. The HDMI connections will be for feeding tv through it (Dish) and PS4 (streaming and blu-ray). Those are both currently connected to my 744 with toslink cables.
Lovinthehd - you'll just need it to play louder!

 

[lovinthehd]

Since I have this 9060 I'd like to use it, and it should be adequate power for surrounds & center for theater. But I know I will want/need more power for the fronts. The HDMI connections will be for feeding tv through it (Dish) and PS4 (streaming and blu-ray). Those are both currently connected to my 744 with toslink cables.
Lovinthehd - you'll just need it to play louder!

Different tvs have different hdmi versions....what tv(s)? 1080p blu ray or 4k?

The louder thing doesn't work, already tried that, just makes tinnitus worse.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

There are other issues as well though. Receivers often have a shorter life and become obsolete.

You mentioned 3 issues with AVR - 1) Power output, 2) Obsolescence, 3) Reliability.

1) Power Output. As I have shown, power output isn't an issue when compared to some standalone dedicated external Amps. So at least we can dispense with the power-debate because the amps in AVR (at least Denon/Marantz) are very capable, even down to 1-ohm with the 3000 series AVR.

2) Pre-pros are just as prone to obsolescence as AVRs. Pre-pros are nothing more than AVRs without the Amp section. Simply removing the amp section does not make them less prone to obsolescence.

3) Reliability is a lot trickier to prove.

I've seen plenty of complaints about pre-pros needing repair (Emotiva, Rotel, Marantz, Denon, Outlaw, and others).

Simply removing the unused Amp section of the AVR to make a Pre-pro doesn't guarantee that it will improve reliability in practice.

Even if Pre-pros are statistically more reliable than AVRs, it doesn't guarantee that any given Pre-pro will be more reliable.

Now if a Pre-pro (Marantz AV7703) were less expensive or about the same price as an AVR (Marantz SR7011/SR7012), then I think it makes more sense to buy the Pre-pro.

But if an AVR is a lot less expensive ($600 for the Denon X3400 vs $2200 for a Marantz AV7704), it is a lot more cost effective to buy the AVR to use either as an AVR or as a Pre-pro (using external amps). They will sound just as good as one another when used as a Pre-pro.

I have an 8YR old Denon AVR-3112 that has been flawless (been through many loud Karaoke parties). I have given my older Denon AVRs (also 3000 series) to other family members, and these Denon AVRs are still good today.

Of course, someone else could buy a Denon 3000 AVR series today and it could malfunction in 3 years when the warranty expires.

Someone else could buy a $10,000 Bryston Pre-pro today and it could malfunction in 5 years when the warranty expires.

One thing is for sure - it would hurt a lot less if a $600 AVR malfunctions in 3 YR vs a $10,000 Pre-pro malfunctions in 5 YR !!!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Now here's a thought, since I'm trying to think how to use this 9060. This gift is just prompting me to spend more money, but it may still play a useful role. I wonder if it would be worth buying a more powerful stereo amp, just for my fronts, and let the 9060 power all other channels? Then I'm still looking at buying a pre/pro (and having to upgrade that occasionally). But theoretically I'd have a power setup that could work for me for a long time. Is it crazy to have a separate amp for fronts and another for center & surrounds?

I don't think it's crazy.

I think it's a good idea to get a Pre-pro and just use the NAD 9060 amp for now. It may be plenty enough power for your use.

The Paradigm Monitor 7 has a sensitivity of about 88dB/w/m. So it shouldn't require much power (about 15W) if your listening position isn't more than 3 meters and 90dB SPL.

If your listening volume isn't very loud and distance is less than 10FT, I think the NAD 9060 should be okay.

 

[chilepastor]

Different tvs have different hdmi versions....what tv(s)? 1080p blu ray or 4k?

TV is a 50" Samsung 1080p Plasma purchased in 2008 - still a great picture. Nothing 4k. However, I expect to buy a projector for this setup in the coming year, moving the TV to another room. I could consider pre/pro with other future equipment upgrades in mind, but the latest & greatest connectivity is also adding to the price. Not sure I want to try to prepare for every potential upgrade; projectors I'm considering have been on market for a while also. So I suspect I am a good candidate for slightly used pre/pro. Do you suggest anything to look for as an amazing product for the price? Something under $600?

 

[3db]

There are other issues as well though. Receivers often have a shorter life and become obsolete. They generally have a much shorter life than a good power amp. When you have to ditch the receiver for what ever reason you loose your power amps.

Shorter life from a features point of view or from an amp point of view? I ask because I bought a used Yamaha RX-V1500 4 years ago which I replaced a couple of months ago with a used RX-V1900 and only because I needed the HDMI that wasn't available on RX-V1500. I've stored it in its original box. My RX-V1800 which I did buy new is still running my main system.
All three units have enough power to run all my speakers in my HT chain full range without sub to very loud levels without showing strain.

I do get the concept of just having to replace a preamp when it gets obsoleted and keeping the power amp. Its a valid arguement.

 

[M Code]

Simply removing the unused Amp section of the AVR to make a Pre-pro doesn't guarantee that it will improve reliability in practice.

Even if Pre-pros are statistically more reliable than AVRs, it doesn't guarantee that any given Pre-pro will be more reliable.

Though dated by a couple of years, from a major AV brand we had access to their field failure rates for the categories of Pre-amps/Controllers & AVRs. Basically the field failure rate for AVRs was about 2.5X that of Pre-amps/Controllers. I recall that within the brand they surmised AVRs were higher for (2) reasons:
1. Many more AVRs sold, especially entry level models
2. Internally the Pre-amp/Controller products had lower internal temperatures without the power output stage & larger power supply, less heat build-up was better for improved reliability

Just my $0.02..