Upgrade Advice Needed, Modern Day Equivalent of 1990 Sony TA-AX401 Integrated Amp?

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Denon X2300 AVR for $450 brand new.

https://www.amazon.com/Denon-AVR-X2300W-Channel-Receiver-Bluetooth/dp/B01E69LWWA/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1517930715&sr=8-3&keywords=denon+x3300

 

[AudioGekko]

Wow, speakers that size need more power than most any $500 or less amp can drive.

I suggest either upping the budget it find used.

An NAD C356BEE factory refurbished might come in at that though.

Thanks both the NAD https://www.crutchfield.com/p_745C326BEE/NAD-C-326BEE.html?tp=34948&awkw=75619821265&awat=pla&awnw=g&awcr=47439151825&awdv=c&awug=9004522

And the Marantz NR 1508 https://www.crutchfield.com/S-yEWOh9HO6os/p_642NR1508/Marantz-NR1508.html

are 50 watts at 8 ohms at $549, I am considering both of those, the cheaper less powerful ones are the Pioneer SX-S30 AND VSX-S520.

 

[KenM10759]

Another place is this, the new authorized reseller of NAD's "b-stock".

http://www.safeandsoundhq.com/NAD-Electronics-C-356BEE-Stereo-Integrated-Amplifier-Factory-Refurbished?cat=47

 

[j_garcia]

So what is the ratio, how do you figure out which receivers are safe for your set of speakers?

It isn't that simple, because the room size, listening position relative to the speakers, etc... are all factors. You can "ballpark" how much you need using various SPL calculators, but actual listening will generally be required.

 

[Montucky]

It isn't that simple, because the room size, listening position relative to the speakers, etc... are all factors. You can "ballpark" how much you need using various SPL calculators, but actual listening will generally be required.

True that. Plus not all "Watts" are equal. Just compare the supposed "100 WATTS x 5" claims the HTiBs make versus the 50 Watts or so per channel a nicer Marantz or NAD claims. Hint. Some are more honest than others, even within brands.

A cheap-o Yamaha HTiB wattage claims that are stated on the box are dubious at best, but their higher end lines or dedicated 2-channel amps are very conservative and MUCH more honest.

One of the reasons we can never get too hung up on that. A big mistake people make when perusing the aisles of their Best Buy. Which is probably why manufacturs continue to do that. One of my favorites is how many cheap-o all-in-one Blu-Ray player/surround sound systems state a gazillion watts* of power. Pretty impressive for a little 20 Watt amplifier!

*Peak/Dynamic power with 1-channel driven at 2-ohms.

 

[AudioGekko]

True that. Plus not all "Watts" are equal. Just compare the supposed "100 WATTS x 5" claims the HTiBs make versus the 50 Watts or so per channel a nicer Marantz or NAD claims. Hint. Some are more honest than others, even within brands.

A cheap-o Yamaha HTiB wattage claims that are stated on the box are dubious at best, but their higher end lines or dedicated 2-channel amps are very conservative and MUCH more honest.

One of the reasons we can never get too hung up on that. A big mistake people make when perusing the aisles of their Best Buy. Which is probably why manufacturs continue to do that. One of my favorites is how many cheap-o all-in-one Blu-Ray player/surround sound systems state a gazillion watts* of power. Pretty impressive for a little 20 Watt amplifier!

*Peak/Dynamic power with 1-channel driven at 2-ohms.

Thanks to all who took the time to provide their experiences. This is interesting to me, one Denon $229, 70 watts 8 ohms, eco mode with no sound ( on 25 watts/off 35 watts) ( Power Output (8 ohm, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.08% 2ch Drive) 70W)

https://usa.denon.com/us/product/hometheater/receivers/avrs530bt

The Marantz NR1508 $549, 50 watts 8 0hms, same eco mode. (
Power Output (8 ohm, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.08% 2ch Drive) 50 W)

In fact both are made by the same company, beyond the expanded home theater audio capabilities and internet radio options for the Marantz, would I notice any difference in sound quality listening in 2 channel stereo, since I don't care about the surround sound, why spend the extra $300.

http://us.marantz.com/us/Products/Pages/ProductDetails.aspx?CatId=avreceivers&ProductId=NR1508


Unless you are aware of some distinctive difference in the quality of the Marantz amp over the Denon.

 

[sholling]

Take a look at a factory refurbished 95w Denon AVR-X2400 on sale for less than $400. That will give you a bit more headroom and an upgrade path for the future. Many of us have had great experiences with A4L refurbs.

https://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/denavrx2400h/denon-avr-x2400h-7.2-ch-x-95-watts-networking-a/v-receiver-w/heos/1.html

 

[AudioGekko]

Basically, the ones who are stating 40-50W are likely being more honest than those cheaper ones claiming 100W. Pretty much cheap models will not advertise their actual power output because if they did, people wouldn't buy them. Fact.

When you look at the specs for an all in one unit or lowest models, they often only state the power, not how it was rated. That Sony lists it's power rating at 10% THD where most receivers will rate at less than 1% THD. And then you get into another one which is rating only in one band - 1kHz vs. 20-20kHz, or rating output of only one channel driven. These are all ways for them to inflate the appearance of how powerful the unit is for those who don't know how to read the specs (if they even report them). It can be difficult to compare models based on this, but look for the same spec at least, even if it is @1kHz, at least you can compare apples to apples. If it doesn't give a specific rating (20-20K or 1kHz), it is probably inflated.

You are correct and the answer was in the online manual:

Front speaker
Continuous RMS power output (reference):

125 + 125 watts (6 ohms

1 kHz, 10% THD) Total harmonic distortion less than 0.07% (6 ohms

1 kHz, 60 W)

With a THD that is around the level that most modern receivers list their specs, the shelf system is 60 watts at 6 ohms, so perhaps 40 to 50 watts at 8 ohms.


This Denon AVR-S530BT is on sale for $229:

Front:
70 W + 70 W (8 Ω/ohms, 20 Hz – 20 kHz with 0.08 % T.H.D.)


Since I am unsure of what to get I might just get the Denon entry level model to increase the power until something comes along that interests me, these modern receivers really need to ditch these 80's style gui digital read outs.

 

[AudioGekko]

View attachment 23499

RE: NAD D3020

Shoddy control buttons? I have none of those. It came with a remote but I use the touch button on top to select source, the other touch button for on/off, the big knob for volume and it absolutely DOES have a volume display!

Well it turns out just about everyone here was correct in some ways, bottom line is that the budget Denon AVR-S530bt sounds OK at moderate levels, not as good as my 2004 Sony MHC-GX450, kind of a boring mid level sound but where it went downhill was at higher volume levels, nothing crazy, 49/53 out of 90, the vocals had a raspy tone effect on most songs, almost like a treble sound but since I'm not an expert I don't know what the proper term would be. It just had a harsh edge to it, heck even listening to MSNBC/Fox News announcers at low levels, it sounded less natural than the Sony Shelf system.

So is the Denon 70 watts at 8 ohms 0.08 THD bogus, I don't know but how could a 40/45 watt Sony Shelf budget system sound better? Is it because a budget AV receiver has too much going on that it pulls back the quality on normal stereo music? And I did listen in stereo and direct mode, I always listen to the Sony Shelf on No Effect mode.

Now I return this and probably go with the NAD D3020, right now at $349, add an FM/AM tuner, it might only be 35 watts but this Sony is only around 40/45 watts and I don't trust any of these numbers touting 70/80/100 watts on the Denon/Yamaha/Onkyo/Pioneer's of the world.

The Sony Shelf's loudness is fine but it takes up so much space, the CD player does not work anymore, drones on for thirty seconds whenever you power it up, I was just looking for a slight bump in clean power and a smaller footprint.

Again I do appreciate all of the help, even from the person who got mad because I decided not to take his advice, I'm just looking for perspectives from the experienced people here and I don't want to throw heavy money when I'm not an audiophile. It seems like the budget stereo world is weak but I do understand that because young people don't buy stereo systems anymore.

Thanks.

 

[AudioGekko]

True that. Plus not all "Watts" are equal. Just compare the supposed "100 WATTS x 5" claims the HTiBs make versus the 50 Watts or so per channel a nicer Marantz or NAD claims. Hint. Some are more honest than others, even within brands.

A cheap-o Yamaha HTiB wattage claims that are stated on the box are dubious at best, but their higher end lines or dedicated 2-channel amps are very conservative and MUCH more honest.

One of the reasons we can never get too hung up on that. A big mistake people make when perusing the aisles of their Best Buy. Which is probably why manufacturs continue to do that. One of my favorites is how many cheap-o all-in-one Blu-Ray player/surround sound systems state a gazillion watts* of power. Pretty impressive for a little 20 Watt amplifier!

*Peak/Dynamic power with 1-channel driven at 2-ohms.

The Pioneer SX-S30 failed the test as well, class d amp, 40 watts at 4ohms, does not list the wattage at 8ohms, while not as poor as the Denon, at higher volume levels it sounded washed out, too much treble, too punchy.

Again, this cheap 2004 Sony shelf system sounds warmer, just sounds better in my opinion. I'll either try one more mid range receiver, the Nad C328 or wait unti I feel the need to jump to an $800-$1000 receiver level but it makes no sense to buy an 80 watt $300 Yamaha as I doubt I will notice any quality jump from the Sony shelf system.

Amateur question: When you go through the audio setup and change the front channel level settings, what is that, is that basically the vintage balance levels?

 

[lovinthehd]

Amateur question: When you go through the audio setup and change the front channel level settings, what is that, is that basically the vintage balance levels?

Both balance of left to right as well as to adjust their relation to other speakers' sensitivity/distance differences (in multi-ch setup).

 

[AudioGekko]

Both balance of left to right as well as to adjust their relation to other speakers' sensitivity/distance differences (in multi-ch setup).

Why does it send out a test tone for a simple level up or down? And none of these room correction, calibrations, altering of db levels, none of these mess with the actual speaker correct, all of it is adjusted on the receiver end if you have dumb speakers?

 

[highfigh]

Why does it send out a test tone for a simple level up or down? And none of these room correction, calibrations, altering of db levels, none of these mess with the actual speaker correct, all of it is adjusted on the receiver end if you have dumb speakers?

If the reference levels are correct, any imbalance is up to the mix.

 

[KEW]

I have not read the entire thread, so forgive me if this is a duplicate post. However accessories4less has the Yamaha 602 for $450 refurbished. The beauty of the refurbished units sold by accessories4less is they were refurbished by the manufacturer, in other words, this unit was reconditioned in a Yamaha facility to Yamaha specifications. For me that is a huge difference in what to expect out of a refurbished unit!

https://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/yamrn602bl/yamaha-r-n602-2-ch-x-80-watts-networking-stereo-receiver/1.html

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Why does it send out a test tone for a simple level up or down? And none of these room correction, calibrations, altering of db levels, none of these mess with the actual speaker correct, all of it is adjusted on the receiver end if you have dumb speakers?

The reason for the test tone is because you would normally make manual adjustments using an spl meter since level matching by ear is basically impossible.

 

[lovinthehd]

I have not read the entire thread, so forgive me if this is a duplicate post. However accessories4less has the Yamaha 602 for $450 refurbished. The beauty of the refurbished units sold by accessories4less is they were refurbished by the manufacturer, in other words, this unit was reconditioned in a Yamaha facility to Yamaha specifications. For me that is a huge difference in what to expect out of a refurbished unit!

https://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/yamrn602bl/yamaha-r-n602-2-ch-x-80-watts-networking-stereo-receiver/1.html

Does Yamaha actually have their own such facilities here in the US? Or contract it out like others, Denon/Marantz don't afaict and contract it to someone to fulfill (Panurgy I believe). When I look up Yamaha service for av receivers they direct me to Tap Electronics as their Western regional center. Too expensive to ship back overseas to the actual factories. Hopefully under the manufacturer's guidance they do a good job but when things are done this way quality can suffer depending on the contract terms....

Why does it send out a test tone for a simple level up or down? And none of these room correction, calibrations, altering of db levels, none of these mess with the actual speaker correct, all of it is adjusted on the receiver end if you have dumb speakers?

Many units combine the test tones with level setting so you can do so with instrumentation (like a measurement mic or spl meter). I do wish they were separate, tho. If you're only using speaker level it's not eq; if you use the entire room correction software setup then eq would be applied (and can often be turned off so that you can just use the level/delay settings).

 

[KEW]

@lovinthehd , I should have said manufacturer approved facility as I have no idea if Yamaha actually owns the Brick and Mortar. I am not sure it makes sense for any company (such as Marantz or Yamaha) to dedicate a permanent building to such repairs, so going through a certification process makes sense.

Here is A4L's explanation of the Yamaha Factory Refurbished designation:

Yamaha Factory Refurbished
Buying a Yamaha Factory Refurbished product is a great way to get "as-new" products at a considerable savings. Every product has been thoroughly tested, repaired (if necessary), cleaned and otherwise renewed to original condition. Next it’s repackaged with original accessories included. When you consider that a factory-renewed Yamaha product undergoes such close scrutiny for defects and workmanship, you might actually be buying something that is in many ways better than new. And for your piece of mind and protection, your purchase is covered by a full 1 year parts and labor warranty valid at any authorized Yamaha repair center (you can look-up locations online here or call 714-522-9888)

Yamaha, like all electronics manufactures, receives products returned for various reasons. In 2011 consumers returned 17 billion dollars in electronics globally, of which less than 5% were found to be defective! Once a product has been opened it must be resold as refurbished and can’t be resold as new again. The history and reason why a product was returned is not provided to us, thus we can’t provide any additional details regarding its past. All products are processed by Yamaha certified technicians, where they are fully tested, repaired (only if necessary), and retested again to ensure the highest quality control. Each unit must pass a complete battery of test before it can be titled a "Yamaha Factory Refurbished" product.

Most units are Cosmetically in Mint Condition (graded a 9 or higher on a scale of 1-10). Very minor signs of wear (light surface scuffs or minor scratches) may be present, although most units show little or no signs of any usage. We DO NOT sell products that are cosmetically damaged (cracked displays, broken knobs, heavy scratches, or physically abused) unless noted in the description. Unfortunately, we can’t provide actual photos of each unit or pick the best one for anyone, as they are all randomly chosen from our factory sealed boxes.

I guess the bottom line is Yamaha is paying a contracted company to provide Yamaha certified techs to perform the inspection/repair. Having worked in manufacturing, it is unreasonable to expect that Yamaha is not tracking the products that go through this process to ensure a realistic ratio of success to failure is being maintained and if there is an uptick in failures, analysis is done to establish whether the repair/evaluation process is wanting or if the agency doing the repairs is short-cutting the process. As long as Yamaha is paying for the work, they have control over it.
This is really the important point!
Many refurbish situation involve a third party (who has little interest in anything other than profit) buying a high quantity of returned goods at a deep discount then flipping as best they can for the most money they can. Some of these companies are concerned about building a repuataion as a quality reconditioner of gear, while others are simply looking at it as a one-time deal and will change their name before repeating. In this latter case, they are likely to just ship out the returns as if they have been reconditioned and let the consumer sort out which ones are defective.

In the case of Yamaha (and other companies that A4L sells for), they are putting their own name and warranty behind the reconditioned products so they have an interest in assuring QC! There is no guarantee of perfection, but you have no idea of the ethics of a completely independent repair agency!

 

[lovinthehd]

@lovinthehd , I should have said manufacturer approved facility as I have no idea if Yamaha actually owns the Brick and Mortar. I am not sure it makes sense for any company (such as Marantz or Yamaha) to dedicate a permanent building to such repairs, so going through a certification process makes sense.

Here is A4L's explanation of the Yamaha Factory Refurbished designation:



I guess the bottom line is Yamaha is paying a contracted company to provide Yamaha certified techs to perform the inspection/repair. Having worked in manufacturing, it is unreasonable to expect that Yamaha is not tracking the products that go through this process to ensure a realistic ratio of success to failure is being maintained and if there is an uptick in failures, analysis is done to establish whether the repair/evaluation process is wanting or if the agency doing the repairs is short-cutting the process. As long as Yamaha is paying for the work, they have control over it.
This is really the important point!
Many refurbish situation involve a third party (who has little interest in anything other than profit) buying a high quantity of returned goods at a deep discount then flipping as best they can for the most money they can. Some of these companies are concerned about building a repuataion as a quality reconditioner of gear, while others are simply looking at it as a one-time deal and will change their name before repeating. In this latter case, they are likely to just ship out the returns as if they have been reconditioned and let the consumer sort out which ones are defective.

In the case of Yamaha (and other companies that A4L sells for), they are putting their own name and warranty behind the reconditioned products so they have an interest in assuring QC! There is no guarantee of perfection, but you have no idea of the ethics of a completely independent repair agency!

Yeah, I get it, just wanted to expand on the use of "factory" as I think it's somewhat misleading. I do remember when many major brands had their own facilities....I had a Panasonic facility near where I worked many years ago, and that was nice when I wanted them to go thru my Technics tt (tone arm lift had lost viscosity, no other particular issues). The techs there all appeared to be from Japan, too....gotta be more expensive than contracting it out.

An independent shop may do great work, sure, but when you sign a contract to handle x number of refurbs from returned units I think the quality of the refurb process can suffer (but since there is often nothing wrong with a returned unit, this probably works out most of the time). As you remember, I had particular experiences with Denon refurbs....