Dramatic Story unfolding in Salisbury (Old Sarum) Wiltshire. Good for a movie already

[Swerd]

When I was in the RCN, we did similar training. In basic, we had to use the real injector, although it was filled with saline, of course. During subsequent refresher training, the injectors didn't have syringes in them.
Our "for real" injectors were filled with Atropine - is that the same as epinephrine?

Recruits for all of our military service branches go through them same basic training, so instructors can be from the army, air force or navy. My NBCD instructor during basic had been in the Airborne Regiment, and, after instructing us in the use of the Atropine injector, by injecting into the meaty part of the thigh, said he would then demonstrate "how they do it in the airborne". He then held up an injector - which we subsequently learned had a fake blood capsule inside, but no syringe - and then rammed it into his forehead, followed by a spray of "blood". I'm proud to say, I wasn't one of the recruits who passed out on the floor...

You're right, it was Atropine. My memory back to 1971 must be fuzzy. Epinephrine injector pens are used to treat anaphylactic shock or extreme asthma attacks.

Fortunately, I never was stationed anywhere that might require us to keep atropine injectors handy. If they had a supply of them, I never was aware of them.

NBCD? Is that Nuclear, Biological, or Chemical Death?

 

[Swerd]

Theresa May, UK Prime Minister, says the nerve agent was identified as a "Novichok" agent, and that it is "highly likely" that Russia was behind the attack.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/theresa-may-british-pm-addresses-nerve-attack-russian-spy-live-updates/

I certainly never heard of that, but Wikipedia has. Note the last paragraph, Use as a weapon.

 

[TLS Guy]

The agent used was a Novichok agent. This is a class of agents developed by the Russians in the 1970s. There are over a hundred forms. Some can be delivered as a pro drug as was the case here almost certainly, as suspected by myself and Swerd. These are very dangerous lethal agents.

Theresa May announced this in the house of commons. The Russian ambassador has until tomorrow evening to explain the the Foreign Secretary, Boris Johnson, how one of their lethal nerve agents found its was to Salisbury. In the prime ministers view there are only two explanations. Either the Russian state placed it in Salisbury or the Russians have lost control of a dangerous agent that only the Russian state can produce. Either explanation is unsatisfactory. If the Ambassador fails to satisfy Boris Johnson, severe sanctions will follow. An awful lot of Russian finance and business passes and is handled through the city of London.

I think their will also be a move for UK allies to join in a boycott of the World Cup and ruin the Russian hosting of the event.

 

[GO-NAD!]

You're right, it was Atropine. My memory back to 1971 must be fuzzy. Epinephrine injector pens are used to treat anaphylactic shock or extreme asthma attacks.

Fortunately, I never was stationed anywhere that might require us to keep atropine injectors handy. If they had a supply of them, I never was aware of them.

NBCD? Is that Nuclear, Biological, or Chemical Death?

D for defence. I believe they call it something else now...CBRN....Chemical, Biological, Radiological and Nuclear defence.

We never carried them where I served either (submarines), but everyone had to go through all the training.

 

[TLS Guy]

D for defence. I believe they call it something else now...CBRN....Chemical, Biological, Radiological and Nuclear defence.

We never carried them where I served either (submarines), but everyone had to go through all the training.

Nerve agents work by causing mass release of acetylcholine at muscarinic receptors.

The acetylcholine is wiped up by cholinesterse and things stay in balance. In event of a large release pseudocholinesterse, which can wipe up a lot more acetylcholine comes into action.

Now nerve agents block cholinesterse and so the synapses (nerve connections) and neuromuscular junctions become depolarized and can not repolarize. Atropine inhibits acetylcholine. However it is not an ideal solution as it is almost certain too much or too little is almost certain to be given. In addition the atropine thickens the secretions produced by the nerve agent and also greatly increases heart rate.

Insects do not have pseudocholinesterase and are therefore highly susceptible to very low doses, far lower than humans. So that is how you kill Mosquitoes and other insects. I have however had farmers spraying for insects with a following wind admitted to the ICU in serious condition.

Some families have pseudocholinesterase deficiency and respond like the mosquito when fogging before the evening barbecue. They also have serious adverse effect from depolarizing muscle relaxants used during anesthesia.

 

[mtrycrafts]

... My memory back to 1971 must be fuzzy. ..

That is life. happens to many of us.

 

[TLS Guy]

This is the latest.

Boris Johnson's video statement explains the current state of play.

 

[shadyJ]

This is the latest.

To that all I can say is LOL.

I just read this: Putin Enemy Found Dead Eight Days After Skripal Poisoning

So another one. Hopefully England implements better security for its Russian ex-pats after this.

Russia needs to be evicted from the international community if they can't behave lawfully.

 

[TLS Guy]

To that all I can say is LOL.

I just read this: Putin Enemy Found Dead Eight Days After Skripal Poisoning

So another one. Hopefully England implements better security for its Russian ex-pats after this.

Russia needs to be evicted from the international community if they can't behave lawfully.

Correct, that was just on the BBC news at 6.

This is very serious stuff. I winder if Irv still thinks a statement is good enough.

 

[shadyJ]

One more thing, yesterday Rex Tillerson was critical of Russia's role in this assassination.Today Tillerson is fired.

The USA is defenseless against Russian plots so long as Trump is in office. If Britain takes a stand against encroaching fascism, they will have to do it alone again, much like the first half of WW2.

 

[TLS Guy]

One more thing, yesterday Rex Tillerson was critical of Russia's role in this assassination.Today Tillerson is fired.

The USA is defenseless against Russian plots so long as Trump is in office. If Britain takes a stand against encroaching fascism, they will have to do it alone again, much like the first half of WW2.

Yes, I fear the ghost of Churchill will soon be summoned.

 

[Swerd]

I'm now reading a book that is highly related to this topic, not the nerve agents, but their source, Vladimir Putin. It's a personal history, not fiction, of an American high-stakes investor who started a successful hedge fund, the Hermitage Fund, in Russia in 1996.

Red Notice by Bill Browder

The first part of the book tells the story of the rise of his hedge fund and all his difficult dealings with the wealthy and lawless Russian oligarchs who owned (stole) most assets in Russia by the late 1990s.

I've just gotten to the second part, the real meat of his story, about how Vladimir Putin comes to power in 2000, and picks off or scares off the oligarchs, essentially stealing a large portion, maybe 50%, of their stolen assets. In Browder's words, "Putin made them his bitches". It's well written and I can't put it down. I never thought I'd be rooting for a hedge fund guy, but the book is that good. Even if he might be exaggerating, his story of how Putin first takes on and defeats the outlaw oligarchs who owned as much as 40% of Russia's assets, how he expanded his reach across Europe to Germany, Poland, and Ukraine. And now he is directly confronting Great Britain, the USA and all their NATO allies.

If you're looking for a good book to read, I highly recommend Red Notice.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Correct, that was just on the BBC news at 6.

This is very serious stuff. I winder if Irv still thinks a statement is good enough.

There will probably be some diplomat expulsions, which will be reciprocated by Russia. They could also freeze some assets, which will - again - be reciprocated. Any retaliatory act of violence would be an ill-advised escalation. For the same reasons that the USA cannot prevent Chinese island-building in the South China Sea, options are rather limited.

 

[GO-NAD!]

One more thing, yesterday Rex Tillerson was critical of Russia's role in this assassination.Today Tillerson is fired.

The USA is defenseless against Russian plots so long as Trump is in office. If Britain takes a stand against encroaching fascism, they will have to do it alone again, much like the first half of WW2.

...except for Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and India (plus assorted small colonies).

 

[Irvrobinson]

I wonder if Irv still thinks a statement is good enough.

Hold your horses, Doc. I never said I thought a statement was good enough. I just said that I expected a proportional response.

I think expelling 23 so-called "diplomats" falls into the statement category. The problem is that it is non-obvious what an appropriate disproportionate response would be. Pretty much, anything that GB can do, Russia can do better and more of.

 

[TLS Guy]

I think they can hurt Russia quite badly through the City of London. In addition pressure is going to be exerted to stop the Russian gas pipeline to Europe. Europe and especially the UK still has lots of coal. When I toured the Welsh mines, full of lot so coal, the guide an old miner said, "One day people will be very glad all this coal is here."

 

[GO-NAD!]

I think they can hurt Russia quite badly through the City of London. In addition pressure is going to be exerted to stop the Russian gas pipeline to Europe. Europe and especially the UK still has lots of coal. When I toured the Welsh mines, full of lot so coal, the guide an old miner said, "One day people will be very glad all this coal is here."

Financial measures go both ways, so it isn't that simple. I like the idea of giving oligarchs' property deals a thorough examination.

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-43384726

Whenever a westerner does business in Russia (or China, for that matter), he is really rolling the dice and betting that he won't get burned.

 

[TLS Guy]

Financial measures go both ways, so it isn't that simple. I like the idea of giving oligarchs' property deals a thorough examination.

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-43384726

Whenever a westerner does business in Russia (or China, for that matter), he is really rolling the dice and betting that he won't get burned.

That will just have to be regarded as collateral damage. BP will likely loose its stake in the Russian oil and gas business.

This is the new cold war and there will be pull back and push back on both sides.

I see the biggest problem is that we will be increasingly drawn into the affairs of the Baltic and Balkan states. The Baltic states are reliable. They hate the Russians. Problem is that Russia is still smarting over the loss of the Baltic states which she enslaved for generations.

The Balkans as always are a much bigger problem. They have had a rough history and a good deal of the time under the Otterman yoke. Too many of those Balkan states are starting to take a page out of Putin's playbook.

Then Turkey is an unstable NATO ally and basically now a fascist state and far too aligned with Moscow.

Then we get to South Med enslaved by German ruthless monetary policy and unfair internal devaluations causing much poverty and hardship. Greece remains in chaos but out of the spotlight. The three parties getting the most votes in the recent Italian elections are closer to Putin than anybody else. Spain, Portugal and Cyprus remain in a sate of unrest. France also has severe fault lines. Then Belgium went for a recent period of 541 days with no government at all!

Things could go badly very quickly. People need to look at the history between 1870 and 1914 very closely and join the dots.

Underlying it all Russia has almost no experience of good governance and has lived almost entirely in hardship under brutal tyrannies throughout its long history.

 

[Swerd]

… Underlying it all Russia has almost no experience of good governance and has lived almost entirely in hardship under brutal tyrannies throughout its long history.

That's the sad truth.

I just finished reading Red Notice by Bill Browder, and again, I highly recommend it. After the recent murder and attempted murders of Russians (these were not the first) in Great Britain, it is important to understand what the Magnitsky Act is and why the criminals running Russia so dislike it. The author of the book, Bill Browder, was instrumental in getting this law passed in the USA, and much of the second half of the book recounts his efforts in doing this.

See these links to read about the Magnitsky Act:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnitsky_Act

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/07/14/the-magnitsky-act-explained/?utm_term=.3b399ce6c53b

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-20626960

 

[TLS Guy]

That's the sad truth.

I just finished reading Red Notice by Bill Browder, and again, I highly recommend it. After the recent murder and attempted murders of Russians (these were not the first) in Great Britain, it is important to understand what the Magnitsky Act is and why the criminals running Russia so dislike it. The author of the book, Bill Browder, was instrumental in getting this law passed in the USA, and much of the second half of the book recounts his efforts in doing this.

See these links to read about the Magnitsky Act:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnitsky_Act

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/07/14/the-magnitsky-act-explained/?utm_term=.3b399ce6c53b

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-20626960

This latest outrage is another indication we are in big trouble with Russia. The police say they can not guarantee the safety of Russian exiles in the UK. They are pondering what to do about it.

May be the whole embassy should be expelled and every Russian national interrogated. Any Russian visitors should have extreme vetting.

This can't continue.

I watched an undercover report on the BBC Panorama program. Russia is a total police sate and rotten to the core.