Magnepan Speaker recommendations

[Jason55]

Hi, I need some help deciding what Maggie’s to do with. Room is 26x13x8. Mainly movies from Apple TV, Netflix (70%) and 40% music from Spotify. No cable or blue ray player. Sitting position is 11’ if with family or 8’ if alone (mostly concerned about when I’m alone

Current setup is a Pioneer VSX 84 TSXi https://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pio/pe/images/portal/cit_3424/350723136VSX-84TXSi.pdf, 1.6QR and CC5

I’m selling the 1.6 QRs because of WAF and the CC5 because it’s too high for the stand that i’d like use. This is what I’m thinking of getting:

MMGi or .7 for LR - 600 OR 1400.00
MMG C center - 300.00
MMG-W for on Wall surrounds 325

Maggie dealer is proposing a Kel T/s 7 sub for 900.00 https://rel.net/shop/subwoofers/serie-ti/t7i/

Questions:
1. Is the .7 worth the 800.00 more than the MMG i?
2. Can I get decent sound with the MMGi (I know it’s a big step down from the 1.6qr but I felt the 1.6s were under-utilized)
3. How is the Kel sub? Is it worth 300.00 more than the https://rel.net/shop/subwoofers/serie-ti/t5i/ ?
4. Are there other subs you recommend?
5. I just got a 4k tv so I will need to upgrade the receiver At some point. Would something like the Denon X1400 be powerful enough 80 wpc? https://usa.denon.com/us/product/hometheater/receivers/avrx1400h or the X2400 95 wpc?

Thanks!

 

[TLS Guy]

Hi, I need some help deciding what Maggie’s to do with. Room is 26x13x8. Mainly movies from Apple TV, Netflix (70%) and 40% music from Spotify. No cable or blue ray player. Sitting position is 11’ if with family or 8’ if alone (mostly concerned about when I’m alone

Current setup is a Pioneer VSX 84 TSXi https://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pio/pe/images/portal/cit_3424/350723136VSX-84TXSi.pdf, 1.6QR and CC5

I’m selling the 1.6 QRs because of WAF and the CC5 because it’s too high for the stand that i’d like use. This is what I’m thinking of getting:

MMGi or .7 for LR - 600 OR 1400.00
MMG C center - 300.00
MMG-W for on Wall surrounds 325

Maggie dealer is proposing a Kel T/s 7 sub for 900.00 https://rel.net/shop/subwoofers/serie-ti/t7i/

Questions:
1. Is the .7 worth the 800.00 more than the MMG i?
2. Can I get decent sound with the MMGi (I know it’s a big step down from the 1.6qr but I felt the 1.6s were under-utilized)
3. How is the Kel sub? Is it worth 300.00 more than the https://rel.net/shop/subwoofers/serie-ti/t5i/ ?
4. Are there other subs you recommend?
5. I just got a 4k tv so I will need to upgrade the receiver At some point. Would something like the Denon X1400 be powerful enough 80 wpc? https://usa.denon.com/us/product/hometheater/receivers/avrx1400h or the X2400 95 wpc?

Thanks!

For your use the Maggies are not a good choice. They are just under 4 ohms admittedly pretty much resistive, but they are inefficient. I think you will blow up that receiver and all but the top end ones. They really need external amps.

The Maggies are a poor mans electrostatic although planar magnetic. They are a fairly decent delicate speaker, but they beam. They are not a good movie speaker I would say.

I think you need more potent speakers given room size and listening distance. Also they will have a definite sweet spot, so not all viewers will have a good experience.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Rel T/s 7 for $900. I think you could do much better, especially for 70% movies (btw: 70+40 = 110% of time, I take it you have a magic time compression device)
I know you have WAF issues, but can you convince her this very little floor space sub? https://www.svsound.com/products/pc-2000 - 16-260 Hz +/- 3 dB this is HUGE improvement over -6db at 30hz which tiny REL offers.

From MMGi spec:
86dB / 500Hz / 2.83v
Impedance 4 Ohm

 

[Jason55]

For your use the Maggies are not a good choice. They are just under 4 ohms admittedly pretty much resistive, but they are inefficient. I think you will blow up that receiver and all but the top end ones. They really need external amps.

The Maggies are a poor mans electrostatic although planar magnetic. They are a fairly decent delicate speaker, but they beam. They are not a good movie speaker I would say.

I think you need more potent speakers given room size and listening distance. Also they will have a definite sweet spot, so not all viewers will have a good experience.

I’ve been using the Pioneer receiver for 11 years and it hasn’t blown up...

 

[Jason55]

Rel T/s 7 for $900. I think you could do much better, especially for 70% movies (btw: 70+40 = 110% of time, I take it you have a magic time compression device)

Lol!

I know you have WAF issues, but can you convince her this very little floor space sub? https://www.svsound.com/products/pc-2000 - 16-260 Hz +/- 3 dB this is HUGE improvement over -6db at 30hz which tiny REL offers.

From MMGi spec:
86dB / 500Hz / 2.83v
Impedance 4 Ohm

I’m definitely getting a sub - there’s no WAF for a sub, just for the 1.7s which are tall and wide (64x19). The REL is what the dealer recommended.

What’s the significance of the specs you quoted?

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I’m definitely getting a sub - there’s no WAF for a sub, just for the 1.7s which are tall and wide (64x19). The REL is what the dealer recommended.

What’s the significance of the specs you quoted?

in case of lack of WAF issue on Sub: $900 opens up LOTS and LOTS of Internet Direct options. SVS is one - bit pricier, but very solid subs,free ship and great warranty.
I'd also consider HSU, Rythmic and PSA.

As for specs: "16-260 Hz +/- 3 dB this is HUGE improvement over -6db at 30hz"
16-260 is frequency range - +/- 3db shows relatively small variation from flat - flat on frequency is what you're looking for in any speaker = it means accurate - so less variation = better.
Frequency response is measured in frequency and it's loudness measured in dB - this is logarithmic scale = for example extra 10db means it's twice louder.
Most action movies have sound effect at (or below) 20hz. You do want a sub capable playing them accurately and with sufficient power.

I would not take suggestions from dealers. REL, I'm sure offers better margins for your seller. I mean it's a decent music sub for small room, but you have medium to large room and music is not your bigger usage.
I won't call it a decent fit by no means.

This is the sub I'd get: http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-3mk5HP.html

 

[shadyJ]

Frequency response is measured in frequency and it's loudness measured in dB - this is logarithmic scale = for example extra 10db means it's twice louder.

You are talking about psychoacoustic metrics which aren't as well-founded. For example, for a lot of people, when you increase the dB SPL by 10 dB, they can perceive that as a doubling of loudness, but not at all frequencies and not at all amplitude ranges and not by all people. Another strange fact is that if you turn down the amplitude by 6 dB, that is most often perceived to be a halving of loudness, but again it depends on circumstances. Personally, when I turn up the gain by 10 dB, that sounds to me like substantially more than a doubling of output.

But that all is discussing 'loudness' which, like I said, is a psychoacoustic metric, which uses a log base of 2. Amplitude, which is a more firm physical metric, has a log base of 10, so to double an amplitude quantity we increase it by 6 dB. But amplitude is not actual sound power, which has a log base of 20 where it takes an increase of 3 dB to double the power. This is why if you double the electrical power that you are sending to a speaker that only nets a 3 dB gain in output. What is interesting is the difference between the amount of actual physical power intensity and psychoacoustic loudness that we hear; it's a huge gap.

However, what we typically think of in differences physical energy really goes to amplitude. For example, if you double the volumetric area that a cone moves in for a certain frequency, you end up with a 6 dB gain in output. In other words, double the excursion for the same frequency results in a doubling of amplitude, although that also means a quadrupling of power intensity.

Here is a chart that illustrates the differences (keep in mind that voltage here means acoustic amplitude):

Oh and yes, a VTF-3 mk5 will vastly outperform any Rel subwoofer in lower frequency output.

 

[shadyJ]

For your use the Maggies are not a good choice. They are just under 4 ohms admittedly pretty much resistive, but they are inefficient. I think you will blow up that receiver and all but the top end ones. They really need external amps.

The Maggies are a poor mans electrostatic although planar magnetic. They are a fairly decent delicate speaker, but they beam. They are not a good movie speaker I would say.

I think you need more potent speakers given room size and listening distance. Also they will have a definite sweet spot, so not all viewers will have a good experience.

Agreed, a flat electrostat is bound to have a very small sweet spot. They might not be bad for home theater as long you only have one listening position. Outside of that listening position, it's not going to sound very good. And it would be crazy to run them without a subwoofer, especially for movies. The Pioneer might be able to tackle the Maggies just fine, as long as you don't blast it for long periods of time. The older Pioneer Elites had reasonably good amplifiers for AVRs. I dread to think what might have happened to the Pioneer receiver amplifiers under Onkyo's ownership.

 

[slipperybidness]

Agreed, a flat electrostat is bound to have a very small sweet spot. They might not be bad for home theater as long you only have one listening position. Outside of that listening position, it's not going to sound very good. And it would be crazy to run them without a subwoofer, especially for movies. The Pioneer might be able to tackle the Maggies just fine, as long as you don't blast it for long periods of time. The older Pioneer Elites had reasonably good amplifiers for AVRs. I dread to think what might have happened to the Pioneer receiver amplifiers under Onkyo's ownership.

Agreed that the older Elites had robust amps that indeed put out the spec'd power. I have the VSX 82.

 

[Jason55]

in case of lack of WAF issue on Sub: $900 opens up LOTS and LOTS of Internet Direct options. SVS is one - bit pricier, but very solid subs,free ship and great warranty.
I'd also consider HSU, Rythmic and PSA.

As for specs: "16-260 Hz +/- 3 dB this is HUGE improvement over -6db at 30hz"
16-260 is frequency range - +/- 3db shows relatively small variation from flat - flat on frequency is what you're looking for in any speaker = it means accurate - so less variation = better.
Frequency response is measured in frequency and it's loudness measured in dB - this is logarithmic scale = for example extra 10db means it's twice louder.
Most action movies have sound effect at (or below) 20hz. You do want a sub capable playing them accurately and with sufficient power.

I would not take suggestions from dealers. REL, I'm sure offers better margins for your seller. I mean it's a decent music sub for small room, but you have medium to large room and music is not your bigger usage.
I won't call it a decent fit by no means.

This is the sub I'd get: http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-3mk5HP.html

Thanks for the info on specs. Half of it went over my head but that might improve with more coffee!

I was inclined to go with dealer suggestions for one stop shopping but rethinking that approach

 

[Jason55]

Agreed, a flat electrostat is bound to have a very small sweet spot. They might not be bad for home theater as long you only have one listening position. Outside of that listening position, it's not going to sound very good. And it would be crazy to run them without a subwoofer, especially for movies. The Pioneer might be able to tackle the Maggies just fine, as long as you don't blast it for long periods of time. The older Pioneer Elites had reasonably good amplifiers for AVRs. I dread to think what might have happened to the Pioneer receiver amplifiers under Onkyo's ownership.

I think I need to move away from Maggies- they’re too demanding. Now looking at Salk or Philharmonitor

 

[Jason55]

Agreed that the older Elites had robust amps that indeed put out the spec'd power. I have the VSX 82.

Okay, I’m going to keep the pioneer for now and focus on speakers and sub for now. Should probably start another thread

 

[slipperybidness]

I think I need to move away from Maggies- they’re too demanding. Now looking at Salk or Philharmonitor

You really can't go wrong with either!

I have one of the older iterations of the Philharmonitor, excellent speakers (mine are the "Alexis Rebecca" branded Phils).

I'v only run them on my Pio briefly, however.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think I need to move away from Maggies- they’re too demanding. Now looking at Salk or Philharmonitor

Is power-demand the only reason?

Back when I owned the Revel Salon2, B&W 802D2, KEF 201/2, Linkwitz Orion 3.2.1, and Philharmonic 3, a friend who owned Magnepan speakers came over to audition my speakers.

He was most impressed with the Salon2, so he ended up buying a pair of Revel F208 towers.

Then some time after that he auditioned some bigger Magnapan speakers and felt like he just couldn't live without Magnapan.

So he sold his Revel F208, sold his older smaller Magnapan, and bought the bigger Magnapan. I don't recall the model number, but it was one of the bigger size speakers.

I've listened to a few Magnepan speakers, and I have never liked the sound of any Magnepan. They all sounded too "diffused" to me to be considered "accurate" - like I'm listening to 7Ch stereo DSP or some other DSP all the time.

But then again, some people will listen to everything in 7Ch Stereo DSP or Hall DSP or Stadium DSP.

I have not seen a Magnepan speaker measurement that I liked either. They all look bad to me.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/magnepan-mmg-speaker-system-measurements

https://www.stereophile.com/content/magnepan-magneplanar-mg16qr-loudspeaker-measurements

https://www.stereophile.com/content/magnepan-magneplanar-mg36r-loudspeaker-measurements


There is a speaker for everyone and everyone is different.

Some people find "accurate" speakers too boring sounding and prefer the Magnepan sound.

 

[TLS Guy]

I think I need to move away from Maggies- they’re too demanding. Now looking at Salk or Philharmonitor

A much better plan.

 

[Jason55]

Is power-demand the only reason?

Back when I owned the Revel Salon2, B&W 802D2, KEF 201/2, Linkwitz Orion 3.2.1, and Philharmonic 3, a friend who owned Magnepan speakers came over to audition my speakers.

He was most impressed with the Salon2, so he ended up buying a pair of Revel F208 towers.

Then some time after that he auditioned some bigger Magnapan speakers and felt like he just couldn't live without Magnapan.

So he sold his Revel F208, sold his older smaller Magnapan, and bought the bigger Magnapan. I don't recall the model number, but it was one of the bigger size speakers.

I've listened to a few Magnepan speakers, and I have never liked the sound of any Magnepan. They all sounded too "diffused" to me to be considered "accurate" - like I'm listening to 7Ch stereo DSP or some other DSP all the time.

But then again, some people will listen to everything in 7Ch Stereo DSP or Hall DSP or Stadium DSP.

I have not seen a Magnepan speaker measurement that I liked either. They all look bad to me.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/magnepan-mmg-speaker-system-measurements

https://www.stereophile.com/content/magnepan-magneplanar-mg16qr-loudspeaker-measurements

https://www.stereophile.com/content/magnepan-magneplanar-mg36r-loudspeaker-measurements


There is a speaker for everyone and everyone is different.

Some people find "accurate" speakers too boring sounding and prefer the Magnepan sound.

Sorry for the delayed reply - somehow didn’t get an alert for these replies

The power demand is definitely part of it: I’d have to get more powerful AVR to power the Maggies and money could be better used to buy better speakers !

The main reason is I feel a lot of decisions were being driven because of the Maggies rather than what’s best for my needs, budget etc plus there’s no denying that Maggies been the smaller ones aren’t the best looking thing for ones living room!

 

[Mikado463]

For your use the Maggies are not a good choice. They are just under 4 ohms admittedly pretty much resistive, but they are inefficient. I think you will blow up that receiver and all but the top end ones. They really need external amps.

The Maggies are a poor mans electrostatic although planar magnetic. They are a fairly decent delicate speaker, but they beam. They are not a good movie speaker I would say.

I think you need more potent speakers given room size and listening distance. Also they will have a definite sweet spot, so not all viewers will have a good experience.

agreed, TLS pretty much summed it up ! As an owner of di-pole (Maggie and Logan) for over 30 years I couldn't agree more

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Sorry for the delayed reply - somehow didn’t get an alert for these replies

The power demand is definitely part of it: I’d have to get more powerful AVR to power the Maggies and money could be better used to buy better speakers !

The main reason is I feel a lot of decisions were being driven because of the Maggies rather than what’s best for my needs, budget etc plus there’s no denying that Maggies been the smaller ones aren’t the best looking thing for ones living room!

Most of us think that better speaker efficiency is a very good thing.

My speakers have a sensitivity of about 93dB/w/m.

Of course, efficiency isn't the only thing.

Sound quality is salient.

So probably a balance between efficiency and sound quality is good.

 

[Mikado463]

Most of us think that better speaker efficiency is a very good thing.

My speakers have a sensitivity of about 93dB/w/m.

Of course, efficiency isn't the only thing.

Sound quality is salient.

So probably a balance between efficiency and sound quality is good.

Point well made, to which it's important to select the speakers first and match the needed amplification second when starting out.

 

[Jason55]

You really can't go wrong with either!

I have one of the older iterations of the Philharmonitor, excellent speakers (mine are the "Alexis Rebecca" branded Phils).

I'v only run them on my Pio briefly, however.