Replacement decision on my Kef LS50

[TheWarrior]

When people audition to towers (especially those with more bass), they sometimes complain that the bass is "muddy".

When people audition smaller speakers with a lot less bass, they never seem to complain that the bass is "muddy" because there's not much bass to begin with.

So is the bass having an adverse reaction to the room acoustics?

Is the bass too much for the size of the room?

Some people call this "overpowering" the room.

That's why some people ask us on the forum whether some towers are too big for their rooms.

IMO this is one huge advantage of "monitors" (much less bass) + subwoofers because you can easily adjust the amount of bass for any given room. With bigger towers, the bass could be too much for the given room.

You have to acknowledge the control that the room has over bass frequencies. It is a reality in any small room (small relative to wavelength) and its something that has to be dealt with. Unfortunately that means there is no simple means, or cookie cutter solution as your own furnishings are just one of many variables making Room A different than Room B even if all 3 dimensions are the same.

 

[ematthews]

When people audition to towers (especially those with more bass), they sometimes complain that the bass is "muddy".

When people audition smaller speakers with a lot less bass, they never seem to complain that the bass is "muddy" because there's not much bass to begin with.

So is the bass having an adverse reaction to the room acoustics?

Is the bass too much for the size of the room?

Some people call this "overpowering" the room.

That's why some people ask us on the forum whether some towers are too big for their rooms.

IMO this is one huge advantage of "monitors" (much less bass) + subwoofers because you can easily adjust the amount of bass for any given room. With bigger towers, the bass could be too much for the given room.

Hint's why I should NOT put the Klipsch RF 7-2 in my 10x12 room. Right?

 

[TheWarrior]

Hint's why I should NOT put the Klipsch RF 7-2 in my 10x12 room. Right?

Bass wavelengths are larger than the boundaries of most rooms. This induces standing waves which makes accurate bass reproduction a matter of chance, if left alone.

ADTG points out you never hear people complaining of muddy bass in book shelf sized speakers - they don't tend to offer much (not an absolute, but typically) below 70-80 hz.

80 hz is a wise crossover frequency because, depending on the size of the room, the wavelength reaches a size where the bass signal stops being omni directional and gains forward bias with increasing frequency.

This also means that the bookshelf vs tower debate really just comes down to room size as you will need subwoofers to achieve equal bass quality at all seats, and all frequencies, regardless.

As you already have a tower, the RF7 by itself would probably be fine without a subwoofer for casual listening. You won't hear it all, but you'll certainly hear most of the bass. Muddy/boomy bass is usually treated with absorption. If that happens, add some pillows and you're good!

 

[PENG]

Hint's why I should NOT put the Klipsch RF 7-2 in my 10x12 room. Right?

You should not, the LS50s are fine in such a room.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Hint's why I should NOT put the Klipsch RF 7-2 in my 10x12 room. Right?

Probably not. Unless you can buy from a place that will allow easy returns for free like Best Buy or Amazon.

Do you have a spare amp?

 

[ematthews]

Probably not. Unless you can buy from a place that will allow easy returns for free like Best Buy or Amazon.

Do you have a spare amp?

No spare Amp. Just my extra Marantz integrated. I like Crutchfield for online. Always great help and shipping to me. And at times they have great sale prices.
I think I could put those Klipsch in there and have a party with myself. Loud and rocking!!!! Not looking for the most refined system. I have the Ascends for that .

 

[ematthews]

You should not, the LS50s are fine in such a room.

Well. Klipsch and Crown amps is the road I should take.

 

[Beave]

Bass wavelengths are larger than the boundaries of most rooms. This induces standing waves which makes accurate bass reproduction a matter of chance, if left alone.

ADTG points out you never hear people complaining of muddy bass in book shelf sized speakers - they don't tend to offer much (not an absolute, but typically) below 70-80 hz.

80 hz is a wise crossover frequency because, depending on the size of the room, the wavelength reaches a size where the bass signal stops being omni directional and gains forward bias with increasing frequency.

This also means that the bookshelf vs tower debate really just comes down to room size as you will need subwoofers to achieve equal bass quality at all seats, and all frequencies, regardless.

As you already have a tower, the RF7 by itself would probably be fine without a subwoofer for casual listening. You won't hear it all, but you'll certainly here most of the bass. Muddy/boomy bass is usually treated with absorption. If that happens, add some pillows and you're good!

I don't understand what you mean by the part I underlined above. Care to elaborate?

 

[TheWarrior]

I don't understand what you mean by the part I underlined above. Care to elaborate?

Bass output remains omni directional as long as the wavelengths are larger, or close to as large, as the dimensions of the room.

1131fps/80 hz = 14 feet

 

[Beave]

Bass output of a speaker is/isn't omnidirectional based on the size of the room in which the speaker resides?????

 

[TheWarrior]

Bass output of a speaker is/isn't omnidirectional based on the size of the room in which the speaker resides?????

I'm not totally sure about what you're asking, but I'll try....

Human hearing covers roughly 20 hz to 20khz. To calculate wavelength, you take the speed of sound (at sea level is 1131 fps) and divide the frequency in to it.

20 hz = 56.5 feet
20,000 hz = 0.678 inches
(in metric it's delightfully easy - 17 meters down to 17 millimeters)

As frequency increases, any loudspeaker gains forward bias - the Directivity Index that I have referenced before.

Because of the inability to fully propagate those large wavelengths in most domestic rooms, they induce the familiar standing waves and room modes. This results in high and low pressure regions within the room. Subwoofers and loudspeakers act as pressure sources, and must be given the placement and/or quantity necessary in order to get ALL of the bass at ALL of the seats - regardless of stated roll offs or marketing nonsense...

This is why even Gene uses subwoofers in his room, despite having front speakers with a total of 6 - 10" woofers.

Due to the omni directional nature of those lower bass frequencies, simply taking measurements at the listening positions is necessary, but insufficient information with which to 'treat' or 'EQ' a room, which I know you've heard me argue before. But here I am explaining it again

 

[Beave]

All irrelevant to your claim that speaker radiation/directivity depends on the room dimensions.

It depends on the dimensions of the front baffle of the speaker driver size and placement, yes, but on the room dimensions???

This is not standing waves in a room we're talking about. You said the speaker radiation itself.

You can spare me the basics. I'm an EE who worked in audio for nearly 20 years.

The reason for the 80Hz crossover is more to do with sub localization being a non-issue up until around that frequency.

 

[TheWarrior]

The reason for the 80Hz crossover is more to do with sub localization being a non-issue up until around that frequency.

I gave you the wavelengths because it seems you still don't understand the reason for why 'sub localization (is) a non-issue up until around that frequency'.

 

[Beave]

Ok, so take a shot at explaining that to me (ie, keep digging in this hole you find yourself in).

 

[TheWarrior]

Ok, so take a shot at explaining that to me (ie, keep digging in this hole you find yourself in).

There's no hole I am in, if I need to explain why a frequency's wavelength that measures dozens of feet in diameter, can't full propagate with in a typical domestic living space.

If you choose not to believe that induces standing waves between parallel room boundaries, then we are done here.

 

[Beave]

Strawman. I challenged neither of those claims.

Please address what I did challenge - namely, that a speaker's radiation vs. frequency depends on room dimensions, and that sub localization depends on room dimensions.

 

[TheWarrior]

Strawman. I challenged neither of those claims.

Please address what I did challenge - namely, that a speaker's radiation vs. frequency depends on room dimensions, and that sub localization depends on room dimensions.

Troll. You haven't asked a proper question, yet.

 

[TheWarrior]

Again, I am not sure how to help you if the concept of bass frequencies who's wavelengths measure dozens of feet cannot fully propagate in a domestic living space. That is the cause of why sub frequencies, around about 80 hz, cannot be localized.

 

[Beave]

Perhaps not. But I properly challenged two of your statements.

 

[TheWarrior]

Perhaps not. But I properly challenged two of your statements.

Again, I am not sure how to help you if the concept of bass frequencies who's wavelengths measure dozens of feet cannot fully propagate in a domestic living space. That is the cause of why sub woofer frequencies, around about 80 hz, cannot be localized.