One Sub For Music Only

[lovinthehd]

I think you''ve basically got it. I doubt cutting off the lowest frequencies from your speakers will change their character, and should allow them to perform better in the range they're more suited for. OTOH who knows, you may be happy with just a low pass filter on the sub. Hard to know until you try.

 

[shadyJ]

So, to clarify in my mind, if I am connecting the HSU VTF2 to my preamp with interconnects running from pre-out to low level inputs on sub, I should also run a high pass filter between my pre amp and power amp so that:

1. my sub runs all of the frequencies below, say 60 hz
2. the high pass filter reduces the strain on my main speakers, which, hopefully, would allow them to be more "open" and less strained

Did I get it?

What if I just go with the cross over on the sub and don't go with a high pass filter? Are there advantages to not using a high pass filter.

My GOALS are to improve the low level bass my main speakers don't produce, to produce more bass impact, and to have the sub fit seamlessly with my speakers.

I LOVE my main speakers and do not want to change their sound..just add to the overall listening experience.

Any advice to this would be appreciated. This is a little more complicated then I had originally thought.

Your understanding of how to hook up your setup with a simple high-pass filter is correct. As for improving the bass, well a sub will certainly give you more output and extension capability. However, a poorly placed sub can also have a very rocky frequency response. But then again, so could your speakers, if you haven't measured their response in-room. To know how even the bass response is, you need to measure it.

 

[Chief2001]

Thanks all! The sub has been ordered ! I will give it a go without the high pass filter to start. Will do the sub crawl and some measurements to see where the best position is for the sub. I have learned the importance of finding the best location for the sub. I think I'm more excited about this audio purchase then any other in a very long time. I'm looking forward to hearing how my system will sound once the bass is shored up.

 

[lsiberian]

Thanks all! The sub has been ordered ! I will give it a go without the high pass filter to start. Will do the sub crawl and some measurements to see where the best position is for the sub. I have learned the importance of finding the best location for the sub. I think I'm more excited about this audio purchase then any other in a very long time. I'm looking forward to hearing how my system will sound once the bass is shored up.

Adding a minidsp would let you do parameterized EQ for your entire system, but you do need a mic to take full advantage of it.

 

[Chief2001]

Thanks for your thoughts. This is a system I have had for 20 years and have fine tuned with my ears. Electrical outlets, cables, millimetres of speaker positioning. My ears will be my mic. I'm hear to listen to music. Perhaps I am ignorant. Which is quite possible.

 

[Chief2001]

Didn't mean to be rude, just not looking to measure and set with mics and computer analysis. This is my baby... I know her. I suppose this brings in the art versus science debate!

 

[lovinthehd]

You used electrical outlets and cables to "tune" your system? Methinks you need more science in your approach, but preference always wins in the end on the other hand....good luck!

 

[Chief2001]

No, not at all. Just examples of the finite level I have gone to to tuning my system.

I used my ears. I listened.

It’s amazing how the temperature of a room effects how a system sounds.

I do need to learn how to use measurement tools, particularly considering the addition of a subwoofer.

But at the end of the day, if one can’t hear ones system and adjust it by ear, then is the system being listened to and enjoyed or is the the system being measured as the enjoyment?

I’m completely open to using measurement to learn and fine tune. In fact, I hope to grow that way. But, I hope it isn’t the only and final facet to settling on speaker placement and music enjoyment.

 

[lovinthehd]

A little science can only help, it doesn't hurt and can perhaps get you closer to your goals than you realize. Your ears aren't scientific instruments (and I understand you probably don't want them to be either), but your brain is in control of your ears and subject to things like sighted/expectation bias, even your emotions/moods can affect your listening. For some physics for subs, might try these articles, and maybe start with part 2 first:

part 1 https://www.soundandvision.com/content/schroeder-frequency-show-and-tell-part-1
part 2 https://www.soundandvision.com/content/schroeder-frequency-show-and-tell-part-2

 

[Chief2001]

Thanks for your thoughts, much appreciated! I look forward to reading the articles. What instruments would you suggest/recommend that I get to conduct the measurements?

 

[shadyJ]

Thanks for your thoughts, much appreciated! I look forward to reading the articles. What instruments would you suggest/recommend that I get to conduct the measurements?

A simple USB measurement mic will suffice. Any of the following should do well: Dayton UMM-6, Behringer ECM8000, or UMIK-1. For the software, just use REW (its free). Go through a tutorial for REW, and take some different measurements, and see what happens. We can help with questions you might have.

 

[Chief2001]

Thanks! I will look into it. Love the free idea!

 

[Chief2001]

Great articles. As I am not an engineer or mathematician, I appreciated the layman nature of the articles.

Here's a question I have to ask:

If I cannot rearrange my room because it is not a dedicated listening room, will the use of REW still help me to fine tune my main speakers and sub?

 

[shadyJ]

Great articles. As I am not an engineer or mathematician, I appreciated the layman nature of the articles.

Here's a question I have to ask:

If I cannot rearrange my room because it is not a dedicated listening room, will the use of REW still help me to fine tune my main speakers and sub?

REW will show you what the response is at your listening position for that particular subwoofer placement. If you have other places where the sub can go, REW will show you the best spot. If the subwoofer can only go in one spot and you can not change your listening position ether, REW can only show you what the response is, but there is not much you can do to change the response aside from EQ'ing it.

 

[Chief2001]

Interesting, thanks.

Here is my plan...once the sub arrives, do a subwoofer crawl to find placement (Yes, default to ears), I will work to integrate it, using the various settings (crossover, phase, gain, EQ). Once I have dialled it in and it is the world's best system, I will sit back, chill with tunes playing and a beverage in hand, and post pics of me smiling.

Or, I will fine-tune it with the REW program.

Or, I will struggle with placement and go to the REW program.

As I can only afford one sub, and, my listening room is small (13x13.6.8, with a 6x8 foot opening to the rest of the house), I anticipate "perfect" integration is going to be a challenge with just the subwoofer crawl. While this technique, the crawl, may work well in bigger rooms, I am wondering if it will be as successful in my room. I am excited to try.

I appreciate the info regarding REW. Learning is always a bonus of this hobby. Despite my artistic approach to listening, I am analytical (perhaps to a fault, which is why I may try to avoid the measurement aspect) at heart (pun intended). It would be unreal to look at some measurements and be able to tweak set-up...if I can understand them.

What are thoughts on no high pass filter and letting my speakers run full-range? That would have to be an all-star lead-in since the "measurement" crowd is involved .

 

[shadyJ]

Interesting, thanks.

Here is my plan...once the sub arrives, do a subwoofer crawl to find placement (Yes, default to ears), I will work to integrate it, using the various settings (crossover, phase, gain, EQ). Once I have dialled it in and it is the world's best system, I will sit back, chill with tunes playing and a beverage in hand, and post pics of me smiling.

Or, I will fine-tune it with the REW program.

Or, I will struggle with placement and go to the REW program.

As I can only afford one sub, and, my listening room is small (13x13.6.8, with a 6x8 foot opening to the rest of the house), I anticipate "perfect" integration is going to be a challenge with just the subwoofer crawl. While this technique, the crawl, may work well in bigger rooms, I am wondering if it will be as successful in my room. I am excited to try.

I appreciate the info regarding REW. Learning is always a bonus of this hobby. Despite my artistic approach to listening, I am analytical (perhaps to a fault, which is why I may try to avoid the measurement aspect) at heart (pun intended). It would be unreal to look at some measurements and be able to tweak set-up...if I can understand them.

What are thoughts on no high pass filter and letting my speakers run full-range? That would have to be an all-star lead-in since the "measurement" crowd is involved .

The problem with dialing the sub in by ear is the program material that you use. If you use music, well that song will hit some bass notes and miss others, so you will only know how that recording sounded with that placement and configuration. Using some piece of music is not a good way to find the best placement, unless you only ever intend to listen to that one song. Using a pink noise would be better, but still nowhere near optimal.

You can let your main speakers run full range, but there are advantages to high-passing them- they will produce less distortion and they will have a greater dynamic range. Running them full range may yield a better frequency response at your listening position in their low-frequency band, however, they will have have worse integration with the subwoofer. There is no harm in trying it, but personally that is not a configuration I would use.

 

[Chief2001]

Thanks ShadyJ! I debated on ordering a high pass filter from HSU when I got the sub, but the 2 pieces couldn't be shipped together, so I thought I would let the sub arrive and give it a go first.

Are there not test tones etc that can be used that are available on YouTube that can be used as a frequency sweep?

 

[shadyJ]

Thanks ShadyJ! I debated on ordering a high pass filter from HSU when I got the sub, but the 2 pieces couldn't be shipped together, so I thought I would let the sub arrive and give it a go first.

Are there not test tones etc that can be used that are available on YouTube that can be used as a frequency sweep?

There are lots of test tones, but the problem is how do you gauge that by ear? It's not easy. REW has a tone generator better than anything youtube has, by the way, so just grab REW for that. Trying to get a sense of the frequency response by listening to a sweep or discrete tones by ear would be tricky at best. If I had to get a sense of the response by ear alone, I would just use a pink noise in the sub's frequency band.

 

[TechHDS]

I have wondering about that too, Sub for music use only. I mean does it really matter as long as a Sub performs? Does the size of the sub really matter? And before you guys jump me, yeah the room size can and will dictate the 'driver' size. But I can attest and beg to differ on that 'driver' size thingy. I had a Sub back in the day 8" driver with a 8' radiator, 1,200 watt, peak was 2,400 watts used it for movies and music. Was the best sub I had. When it would hit I could see that Sub slide on the floor back some Zoom
!. I had to put a isolation pad under the sub got tired of getting up to reposition it back in place. Sad to say the amp burned out in it.

 

[shadyJ]

I have wondering about that too, Sub for music use only. I mean does it really matter as long as a Sub performs? Does the size of the sub really matter? And before you guys jump me, yeah the room size can and will dictate the 'driver' size. But I can attest and beg to differ on that 'driver' size thingy. I had a Sub back in the day 8" driver with a 8' radiator, 1,200 watt, peak was 2,400 watts used it for movies and music. Was the best sub I had. When it would hit I could see that Sub slide on the floor back some Zoom
!. I had to put a isolation pad under the sub got tired of getting up to reposition it back in place. Sad to say the amp burned out in it.

To be sure, 'driver size' isn't actually a determinant of what sub should be used in what sized room. Only displacement capability and desired listening levels. Some small diameter drivers have very long throws and so can move a lot of air, and some large diameter drivers have very little throw and can't push a whole lot of air. A lot of people don't need to listen at loud volumes, when means less air displacement is needed.

The sub of the type you described had a lot of problems. That type of design took on a lot of design compromises to achieve a small size. The woofer had to have a huge amount of displacement for that design to be able to make a loud noise. The problem with that is when the cone size is small, the suspension system has to permit a lot of movement, but there isn't much room for suspension components because its such a cramped driver. You can make room for more suspension by having a small voice coil, but that doesn't leave a lot of room for coil mass, and it also means the driver can get knocked out of alignment easier. In order for a small woofer to be able to produce deep bass easily, it must be heavy too, in order to lower its resonant frequency. But the problem with that is it greatly diminishes its upper bass capability. It needed a ton of power to move a lot of air in a small enclosure as well, but that meant it needed a lot of voice coil mass, and that meant the moving assembly was going to be heavy, and was also going to incur a lot of induction. That all adds up to a very poor upper bass response.

In order to make it produce deep bass in a small box, they used very heavy, long-throw passive radiators, but the radiator mass could often be so much that it would rock the cabinet and make the sub 'walk.' Of course, shoving all that amplification in a small enclosure meant it would store a lot of heat, and that all of that heat eventually created reliability issues. Many of those types of subs would not lot a long time. What is more, they were all very costly too, since they needed powerhouse amplifiers and drivers with massive motor structures.

Those subs could do a reasonable amount of bass in the 20 to 30 Hz region when you consider their size, but if you relax your size restrictions, that creates huge dividends as far as performance possibilities goes. Trying to get deep bass from a small cabinet is a terrible uphill battle against physics.