Help for a bar/rest project...

R

rubenlopez

Enthusiast
Hello... dont have much knowledge so thought your ideas might help... We’re starting a bar/restaurant/bbq project in one of our farms, (Costa Rica) and need some audio solutions for the place... opened place, kind of outdoor like, main structure has no walls, yet metallic high ceiling around 16 by 8 yards, want to keep the budget low (sorry)...

Anyway, my current idea is buying 2 pairs of Kef q100 ($229 pair currently) and a yamaha s202 receiver ($120 currently), and place each speaker “column mounted” on each outside pillar... receiver is rated at 100w and has a/b connection but I HAVE NO IDEA if this receiver would drive the 4 kefs due to my lack of technical knowledge...

The alternative is getting 4 Bluetooth speakers that I could pair together for a simpler solution, like JBLs flip 4 or Extremes etc, which is interesting since the pairing and placing is easier and they can get wet... (keep in mind they’ll have to be taken down and stored every single end of day at to avoid robbery)...

Also, would the Kef and receiver solution being stereo (left/right) be a problem in your opinion for the project and it would be better to make each speaker mono?

The idea is to stream from spotify premium some nice ambient music, not too high, not too low...

Any thoughts and solutions will be appreciated... thanks
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
If you have a limited budget, this could work, but only if you don't try to play loud music. Also, limit the number of people who have access to the volume and tone controls- I worked in a bar and have done audio work in bars- the one constant is that someone always "knows" they can make it sound better by cranking the tone and volume controls until the speakers and/or amplifier go up in smoke.

If you want it to be more durable, buy some good used equipment, especially the speakers- in a place with those dimensions, there's no way the sound will be too loud in some places and not loud enough in others. The way to get around this is to use a lot more speakers and let them cover the space without being too loud. Not only will the sound quality be better, the acoustics won't cause as many problems.

How high is the ceiling?

The problem with this kind of system is, if you want to use the amplifier in a receiver, is that a receiver can't easily be connected to a large number of speakers without needing something to maintain a usable impedance, losing signal because there's no such thing as controls that don't waste energy and the fact that with any power level, the speakers are sharing it, so a 100W/channel amp that's powering 8 speakers is delivering a whopping 12.5W/speaker, running flat out with no headroom. That won't work.

What will work, is a 70V amplifier and speakers, but you'll need to make sure the power settings are correct if you want the amplifier to survive.

JBL and QSC have a program for determining the number of speakers needed in a space and it allows for choosing their speakers, but you could substitute others, but only if they disperse the sound in the same way as the ones used in the software.

The good news- you can start with a simple system, operate it within its usable range and expand as funds allow by sending the audio out of the REC jacks and connecting it to an amplifier that can provide more power. However, those speakers aren't going to fill a large room with full-range sound. Any speaker made for the rooms in a house will sound tiny if you put them in a large room, or outside. If you want bass, you'll need at least one subwoofer but again, that can be added as funding allows.

Draw the floorplan and think of the speakers output as a 15 foot half-circle, for the purpose of placement and if possible, connect them without mounting, so you can try different locations. You'll have more bass if the speakers are in the corners, especially if the ceiling isn't terribly high. The problem is that the center of the room may not be covered as well as the rest of the seats. DO NOT aim the speakers at the diners- aim over their heads so they aren't in a direct line with the speakers.
 
R

rubenlopez

Enthusiast
^^^... Thank you very much for the reply... that exactly were my thoughts, that maybe the kefs will give just a good small semi circle of good audio, and the rest of the place would be lacking sound... regarding amps, preamps, watts and volts etc, I’m completely lost... yet I do understand the basic concept that the more speakers I connect to a system, to lesser power and maybe more distortion I’ll get from each one of them, until I end up frying the receiver... dont want to go either with the loudspeaker option aka, JBL eons or yamaha dbr due to their size, price and output, no good IMO for the ambient idea we have... ceiling is about 16 feet tall in the apex, triangular, metallic structure with plastic and metallic lamination... I do believe that the audio quality I can get from Bluetooth speakers is lesser than some real bookshelfs and a dediated receiver, but the option of connecting up to 100 JBLs or Sony bluetooth speakers is sounding now much better and even simpler... interested to hear your thoughts on this alternative and what others might say... can get maybe 6 to start, pair them and just add more as needed later on...

Thank you very much again
 
S

shkumar4963

Audioholic
Hello... dont have much knowledge so thought your ideas might help... We’re starting a bar/restaurant/bbq project in one of our farms, (Costa Rica) and need some audio solutions for the place... opened place, kind of outdoor like, main structure has no walls, yet metallic high ceiling around 16 by 8 yards, want to keep the budget low (sorry)...

Anyway, my current idea is buying 2 pairs of Kef q100 ($229 pair currently) and a yamaha s202 receiver ($120 currently), and place each speaker “column mounted” on each outside pillar... receiver is rated at 100w and has a/b connection but I HAVE NO IDEA if this receiver would drive the 4 kefs due to my lack of technical knowledge...

The alternative is getting 4 Bluetooth speakers that I could pair together for a simpler solution, like JBLs flip 4 or Extremes etc, which is interesting since the pairing and placing is easier and they can get wet... (keep in mind they’ll have to be taken down and stored every single end of day at to avoid robbery)...

Also, would the Kef and receiver solution being stereo (left/right) be a problem in your opinion for the project and it would be better to make each speaker mono?

The idea is to stream from spotify premium some nice ambient music, not too high, not too low...

Any thoughts and solutions will be appreciated... thanks
Congratulations. Maybe next time i am in CR, will visit your place.

Putting an audio solution for an open outdoor place is very different than what is needed for indoor. Speakers designed for indoor sound horrible outdoor as there is no room wall reinforcement there.

Speaker system designed for outdoor use compensate for this lack of room wall reinforcement.

Compred to indoor, I find that more speakers are needed to provide a even sound outdoor.

So look at JBL, QSC, and Bose for outdoor solutions. Also see if you have any space for an outdoor sub.

Good luck.



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R

rubenlopez

Enthusiast
^^^ Sure, will be a pleasure to have an audioholic come by...

Highway 27, Atenas, Balsa exit, on the right, in front of Highway... opening 3 quarter of this 2018...

After reading your thoughts, and checking some prices if those JBLs and Bose outdoors, and thinking, I’m leaning now even more towards a multiple bluetooth speaker paired idea...

Only problem with this is that woofers are joke size and wattage very low... so I might need many, which increases the price, yet, more units will give me more coverage... on the other hand pricier wired solutions or powered loudspeakers cost more by unit, but I need less, with the problem of more unbalanced audio sections... tough call...
 
S

shkumar4963

Audioholic
^^^... Thank you very much for the reply... that exactly were my thoughts, that maybe the kefs will give just a good small semi circle of good audio, and the rest of the place would be lacking sound... regarding amps, preamps, watts and volts etc, I’m completely lost... yet I do understand the basic concept that the more speakers I connect to a system, to lesser power and maybe more distortion I’ll get from each one of them, until I end up frying the receiver... dont want to go either with the loudspeaker option aka, JBL eons or yamaha dbr due to their size, price and output, no good IMO for the ambient idea we have... ceiling is about 16 feet tall in the apex, triangular, metallic structure with plastic and metallic lamination... I do believe that the audio quality I can get from Bluetooth speakers is lesser than some real bookshelfs and a dediated receiver, but the option of connecting up to 100 JBLs or Sony bluetooth speakers is sounding now much better and even simpler... interested to hear your thoughts on this alternative and what others might say... can get maybe 6 to start, pair them and just add more as needed later on...

Thank you very much again
Check out these self powered speakers on sale now. Massdrop $179 for two free shipping.





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S

shkumar4963

Audioholic
^^^ Sure, will be a pleasure to have an audioholic come by...

Highway 27, Atenas, Balsa exit, on the right, in front of Highway... opening 3 quarter of this 2018...

After reading your thoughts, and checking some prices if those JBLs and Bose outdoors, and thinking, I’m leaning now even more towards a multiple bluetooth speaker paired idea...

Only problem with this is that woofers are joke size and wattage very low... so I might need many, which increases the price, yet, more units will give me more coverage... on the other hand pricier wired solutions or powered loudspeakers cost more by unit, but I need less, with the problem of more unbalanced audio sections... tough call...
Yes. Bluetooth speakers woukd probably be an unsuitable solution for this situation. Problem is that the market for outdoor speakers is small and so they are more expensive for the same quality indoor speakers. But they are more appropriate. Bluetooth speakers are designed for portable outdoor use and so they are appropriate but may not last a long time with daily use. Also battery will fail after some time.

In Bluetooth speakers I have used these speakers and tjey sound good outdoor. But are expensive.

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/ultimate-ears-megaboom-portable-bluetooth-speaker-panther/6028604.p?skuId=6028604&cmp=RMX&extStoreId=1533&ref=212&loc=1&ksid=491bc121-0bfa-45ed-88e1-e41ab18888cb&ksprof_id=11&ksaffcode=pg264894&ksdevice=m&lsft=ref:212,loc:2



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S

shkumar4963

Audioholic
Just realized that indoor speakers will not last outdoor very long because the speaker cone and surround material is not designed for outdoor use.

Also most outdoor speakers are sealed units while many indoor speakers are ported. Would critters make a home inside a ported speaker in CR?

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S

shkumar4963

Audioholic
Check out Polk and Infinity outdoor speaker offerings.

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R

rubenlopez

Enthusiast
Those are the 305 studio monitors right?

I was considering them also, but discarded them due to the “studio near field” issue... however, I have no idea if they would play similar to a normal bookshelf... (cant audition any because my country only sells basic stuff)... The JBL 305 idea still, without knowing how they could sound, seem to give a good “in between” on what I’m looking for, bigger woofers than the bluetooth ones, and it will be easier (I guess) to feed them with a mono signal each... compared to wired speakers and receiver solution... price on Amazon is $99 each right now, but the above promo seems even better...

Would you say that the sound dispertion of these JBLs, maybe 4 or 6 will be adequate to cover the 9x16 yard opened area?

Question 2... any opinions if I can take advantage of the metallic ceiling, aim the speakers a little up to get reflection, or will this make the sound a mess?

Thanks
 
R

rubenlopez

Enthusiast
Just realized that indoor speakers will not last outdoor very long because the speaker cone and surround material is not designed for outdoor use.

Also most outdoor speakers are sealed units while many indoor speakers are ported. Would critters make a home inside a ported speaker in CR?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
This country is an insect paradise, so I guess yes...

Checked the polk line and yamaha earlier in the morning, but prices are not “reasonable”... $99 per pair for the base o f line atrium 4 in polk... that’s when I tought that id I was going wired way, the kefs q100 would be a much better deal... yet, now that someone said they could sound bad on a outdoor placement I’m having second toughts... this could happen as well with the JBLs 305s... but I dont know...

Flip4, charge and extreme, or sony xb line has, if we look at it on that angle, the advantage that while they could not be serious speakers for audio listening, they might be calibrated for outdoor use...
 
R

rubenlopez

Enthusiast
Yes. Bluetooth speakers woukd probably be an unsuitable solution for this situation. Problem is that the market for outdoor speakers is small and so they are more expensive for the same quality indoor speakers. But they are more appropriate. Bluetooth speakers are designed for portable outdoor use and so they are appropriate but may not last a long time with daily use. Also battery will fail after some time.

In Bluetooth speakers I have used these speakers and tjey sound good outdoor. But are expensive.

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/ultimate-ears-megaboom-portable-bluetooth-speaker-panther/6028604.p?skuId=6028604&cmp=RMX&extStoreId=1533&ref=212&loc=1&ksid=491bc121-0bfa-45ed-88e1-e41ab18888cb&ksprof_id=11&ksaffcode=pg264894&ksdevice=m&lsft=ref:212,loc:2



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Too expensive that UE megaboom... for that amount I do think a Yamaha dbr10 ($350 used like new on Amazon) gives me a better solution... but I’m trying to keep the budget at around $600 total... and checking the pros and cons of each path to see what would be best...
 
S

shkumar4963

Audioholic
I am also looking for a better solution for my back yard. The problem outside is loss of lower frequencies.

With that in mind lsr305 may sound better than Q100. I have lsr305 and can check it out later today and let you know.

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R

rubenlopez

Enthusiast
I am also looking for a better solution for my back yard. The problem outside is loss of lower frequencies.

With that in mind lsr305 may sound better than Q100. I have lsr305 and can check it out later today and let you know.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
That would be wonderful... thanks... LF on the 305 from what I’ve read is a little better than the kefs, but most say the Kefs are excellent speakers yata yata yata etc...

With that in mind, my options then are: (shipping and cables etc)

1. 4-6 jbls 305... $500 to $700

2. An “adequate” budget receiver and 2 pairs of Q100s... $700 to $800

3. Same receiver but with 6 outdoor speakers (polk, yamaha etc)... $600 to $700

4. A pair of Yamaha dbr10s or something alike... $800 to $900

5. 6 bluetooth speakers at around $99 each, with a “party mode” or something similar to sync them up... $700 to $800...
 
S

shkumar4963

Audioholic
That would be wonderful... thanks... LF on the 305 from what I’ve read is a little better than the kefs, but most say the Kefs are excellent speakers yata yata yata etc...

With that in mind, my options then are: (shipping and cables etc)

1. 4-6 jbls 305... $500 to $700

2. An “adequate” budget receiver and 2 pairs of Q100s... $700 to $800

3. Same receiver but with 6 outdoor speakers (polk, yamaha etc)... $600 to $700

4. A pair of Yamaha dbr10s or something alike... $800 to $900

5. 6 bluetooth speakers at around $99 each, with a “party mode” or something similar to sync them up... $700 to $800...
I will check and let you know. I also have q100 and though it is a bit more effort, I can audition them outside and let you know.

Based on my current understanding, for background sift music a pair of dbr10 is NOT the solution.

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R

rubenlopez

Enthusiast
I will check and let you know. I also have q100 and though it is a bit more effort, I can audition them outside and let you know.

Based on my current understanding, for background sift music a pair of dbr10 is NOT the solution.

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An outside vs between the 305 and the q100 would be excellent... thank you very for all your help... as a request, please do add all the setup time between both systems into considerations, since that will be also a daily thing in the bar/rest project...

Hard for me to understand now why, while having so many speakers, you’re having a hard time figuring out the solution for the back yard... I guess even pros have the same doubts while wagering the pros and cons... seems to be a common theme...
 
S

shkumar4963

Audioholic
An outside vs between the 305 and the q100 would be excellent... thank you very for all your help... as a request, please do add all the setup time between both systems into considerations, since that will be also a daily thing in the bar/rest project...

Hard for me to understand now why, while having so many speakers, you’re having a hard time figuring out the solution for the back yard... I guess even pros have the same doubts while wagering the pros and cons... seems to be a common theme...
Will do. But it may take some time.

I am no expert. What I learnt is from all of you here at the forum and discussing items with Dr. Toole and others.

I would like to create a set up outside that I can also use for critical listening and that requires better outdoor speakers and better quality subwoofer. Looks like there is not a large market for either of them.

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highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
This country is an insect paradise, so I guess yes...

Checked the polk line and yamaha earlier in the morning, but prices are not “reasonable”... $99 per pair for the base o f line atrium 4 in polk... that’s when I tought that id I was going wired way, the kefs q100 would be a much better deal... yet, now that someone said they could sound bad on a outdoor placement I’m having second toughts... this could happen as well with the JBLs 305s... but I dont know...

Flip4, charge and extreme, or sony xb line has, if we look at it on that angle, the advantage that while they could not be serious speakers for audio listening, they might be calibrated for outdoor use...
If you can get the Atrium 4 for $99/pair, you could do much worse for the price. I installed a pair of Atrium 8 in a yoga studio that's 18' wide x 35' long x 14' high and they fill the room at a decent loudness. I sell Polk speakers and that's below my dealer cost.
 
R

rubenlopez

Enthusiast
Will do. But it may take some time.

I am no expert. What I learnt is from all of you here at the forum and discussing items with Dr. Toole and others.

I would like to create a set up outside that I can also use for critical listening and that requires better outdoor speakers and better quality subwoofer. Looks like there is not a large market for either of them.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
No hurry here... interested to read your toughts...

As a side note, how are the q100 vs the 305 on a mid sized room setting? (no sub to be included) might include an extra system in the package in the same shipping when I buy the equipment for the project...
 
R

rubenlopez

Enthusiast
If you can get the Atrium 4 for $99/pair, you could do much worse for the price. I installed a pair of Atrium 8 in a yoga studio that's 18' wide x 35' long x 14' high and they fill the room at a decent loudness. I sell Polk speakers and that's below my dealer cost.
Will have them in mind... only convern with these “outdoor” speaker is a feeling that I’m getting a worst item for a similar price when compared to bookshelfs... but I don’t really know... I’m currently in “reading all opinions and data” mode...
 

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