New Anthem STR- wiring question

[WineOfTheVeins]

First time posting. Well, here she is. Came from the 5 channel world, trying my hand in the 2 channel stereo one. I got an amazing price on one of these, got to play around with it, and fell in love.
I'm wondering if you guys could give me some advice on wiring. My tower speakers (can handle 500w) have 4 posts, top 2 for mids bottom 2 for lows, is there any benefit first of all from running the fancy shielded, paired, heavy gauge wire, or would some simple 12 gauge wire that I have from my 5.1 setup do just the same? The cables they had in store ranged anywhere from $90 to $12,000. Yes, 12 grand. From my electrician's point of view, I can't help but think there's a ton of snake oil in some of these wire products.
The other question is about banana plug wiring, or bi-wiring. It has one set of outs for each channel, so I'm having a hard time seeing how running two sets of wires to one speaker's 4 posts would be beneficial? There is only one + and - so wouldn't it be bottle-necking there anyway?

Thanks in advance for the help.
Anthem STR

Wire I currently have:

Wire I was curious about:

 

[lovinthehd]

Your 12g wire is fine (and yes, you're accurate in identifying snake oil). Just use the speakers using the top or bottom terminals with the straps between the top and bottom posts left in place. You can read this article but bi-wiring or even passive bi-amping (which I don't think your integrated amp is set up for) is a waste of time/wire IMO.

Welcome to the forums.

 

[KEW]

@lovinthehd , your link did not make it!

 

[2channel lover]

First time posting. Well, here she is. Came from the 5 channel world, trying my hand in the 2 channel stereo one. I got an amazing price on one of these, got to play around with it, and fell in love.
I'm wondering if you guys could give me some advice on wiring. My tower speakers (can handle 500w) have 4 posts, top 2 for mids bottom 2 for lows, is there any benefit first of all from running the fancy shielded, paired, heavy gauge wire, or would some simple 12 gauge wire that I have from my 5.1 setup do just the same? The cables they had in store ranged anywhere from $90 to $12,000. Yes, 12 grand. From my electrician's point of view, I can't help but think there's a ton of snake oil in some of these wire products.
The other question is about banana plug wiring, or bi-wiring. It has one set of outs for each channel, so I'm having a hard time seeing how running two sets of wires to one speaker's 4 posts would be beneficial? There is only one + and - so wouldn't it be bottle-necking there anyway?

Thanks in advance for the help.
Anthem STR

Wire I currently have:

Wire I was curious about:

Congrats on the new Anthem.

Speaker cables...they are a little more important than interconnects imo...I generally shoot for the middle on wiring in general...never the cheapest, but damn sure not the most expensive. You're right, the 12 gauge you have is ample. I wouldn't be concerned about bi-wiring.

 

[WineOfTheVeins]

Thanks for the warm welcomes and advice. Since I already own that 12ga I will try it, if the shop owner wants to loan me some middle of the road cables to do a side by side comparison I will. I'm so excited, I have to wait until the 5th to get that bad girl in. The handmade workmanship really shows on this int amp.

There is a ground screw at the back for bonding things to the chassis, I'd imagine that's for the fancy wires with metallic jackets etc?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

12G wires are definitely good enough for any system.

I sure would not waste any time with any snake-oil expensive wires.

I do use Kimber Kable only because I love the way they look aesthetically. I know they don't sound any differently than other wires.

Bananas and Spades are for convenience and aesthetics.

Bi-wiring and passive bi-amp are a total waste of time, but are okay for aesthetics. They do look cool.

BTW, the Anthem Integrated Amp looks really cool. Certainly has plenty of power - 200W into 8 ohms. A bit pricy, though at $4500.

What speakers do you have?

 

[WineOfTheVeins]

Thanks for the advice Acu. I won't bother with any of that then. Should I cut exact same lengths of wire for left and right so there is minimal variance in the circuit?
Yeah, the store is focused just on audio equipment, the guy was extremely knowledgeable and showed me every option. I fell in love with the Anthem, handcrafted and made in Canada, not China or Taiwan.
Right now I have a new set of Polk RTi A9's. They do need a lot of power, and most other amps in that price range only put out a fraction of that. Since the Polk's say 8 ohms, does that mean it's always 8 ohms, or could the amp be putting out higher wattage into less ohms at different frequencies? The speakers claim they can handle 500w.

A big spender at that shop referred me, so the guy treated me well, gave me 20% off the $4500US tag. Couldn't refuse. They had a silver one on display but I wanted Black, so I'm waiting a week for it. We hooked it up to a $25,000 set of Paradigm's and it handled it like a champ. Good to know I have that option if I fall into some top tier speakers down the road.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...I have a new set of Polk RTi A9's...

...the guy treated me well, gave me 20% off the $4500US tag (Anthem STR)...

Hmm. Besides the room acoustics and actual music recording, the salient components are the speakers and subwoofers, not the electronics.

I would rather spend $4K on speakers and subs and $1K on electronics, not the other way around.

 

[WineOfTheVeins]

GF's dad has McIntosh electronics which is probably double the cost of this, and the system sounds incredible. Best system I've ever heard. I'm not sure I could find decent electronics with all the options I need for my variety of music sources, and the power behind it to light up loudspeakers properly for $1k.

 

[lovinthehd]

@lovinthehd , your link did not make it!

Indeed....this one in any case http://www.audioholics.com/frequent-questions/the-difference-between-biamping-vs-biwiring

 

[lovinthehd]

Should I cut exact same lengths of wire for left and right so there is minimal variance in the circuit?
Yeah, the store is focused just on audio equipment, the guy was extremely knowledgeable and showed me every option. I fell in love with the Anthem, handcrafted and made in Canada, not China or Taiwan.
Right now I have a new set of Polk RTi A9's. They do need a lot of power, and most other amps in that price range only put out a fraction of that. Since the Polk's say 8 ohms, does that mean it's always 8 ohms, or could the amp be putting out higher wattage into less ohms at different frequencies? The speakers claim they can handle 500w.

At the speed of electricity, don't worry about trivial differences in length for the speaker wire for in-home wiring.

Still likely much of the guts of your gear is not be made in Canada, but I can appreciate something assembled in your own country. It is quite an expensive unit for what it does, tho if you've got no problem with something of that price range....but personally I'd spend far more on speakers than amplification.

The speakers have a nominal impedance of 8 ohm, but that will vary by frequency in actual use; they don't output wattage, though, and a speakers' max wattage is usually more a melting point than anything useful (let alone that they'll sound good with that much power provided). You can research impedance measurements for your speakers to see what impedance at what frequency if your speakers have such measurements available. Try looking thru some of these articles/threads on impedance/amplification

 

[WineOfTheVeins]

Well, my Anthem in beautiful black finally came in. Took about an hour to set it all up, between the room correction kit, updates, and what not. I was really intrigued at the ARC software. It pulses each speaker several times, shows you the Soundwave from left and right, and shows the smooth correction according to your room's acoustics. I tried playing a song before and after I did the ARC, and I must say it helps a ton!
It's a wonderful piece of kit; not going to lie. Named her Melody. The fit and finish are immaculate. Knowing it's front to back made in Canada, uses some Mark Levinson parts, and has a 5 year warranty, that makes me happy. She works beautifully, paired up with Foobar2000 and all the add-ons, playing FLAC files from my laptop sounds incredible. There's way more bass than the Denon, highs sound brilliantly alive, and the unit runs super cold. You look inside from the top and there's a Toroidal transformer that's the size of a Kia spare tire, and all the circuitry is super tidy and well thought of. Absolutely insane amounts of power, on the Denon I'd need to run at -15db, on the STR it is -26 and it's plenty loud (~90db). Now I feel like these Polk's are holding it back.
I do have an offer for a brand new set of Focal Electra 1038be in Black Ash for $9250cdn. How bad do I hate my wallet? :/

 

[PENG]

Absolutely insane amounts of power, on the Denon I'd need to run at -15db, on the STR it is -26 and it's plenty loud (~90db).

Congratulations! For that kind of money, good that you like it so much. Just one point, you can't go by the volume display between the two because their gain structures could be quite different. In addition, their volume scales may also be different. For example, my Cambridge audio's volume scale is -95 to 0dB, so -26 would be like -8 to -10 for a Denon or Marantz AVR that are set to the relative scale. Other than that, one would expect the STR be twice as powerful as a mid range AVR, though in terms of how "loud", that's just a 3 dB difference, making the results of a volume position comparison insignificant.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Absolutely insane amounts of power, on the Denon I'd need to run at -15db, on the STR it is -26 and it's plenty loud (~90db).

No doubt the Anthem should be more powerful and costs a lot more than the cheaper Denon AVR.

But probably the biggest common mistake that people make is equating volume knob to power.

As PENG already says, you can't compare one company's volume knob to another company.

I bet if you increase the gain on a $300 Denon AVR (increase the digital trims to +12.0), the Denon might be 90dB at -40.0 volume knob.

 

[WineOfTheVeins]

No doubt the Anthem should be more powerful and costs a lot more than the cheaper Denon AVR.

But probably the biggest common mistake that people make is equating volume knob to power.

As PENG already says, you can't compare one company's volume knob to another company.

I bet if you increase the gain on a $300 Denon AVR (increase the digital trims to +12.0), the Denon might be 90dB at -40.0 volume knob.

True, maybe I worded it wrong. Even at lower volumes (room db wise), there is substantially more bass with the STR. And as you go higher, there's more punch to the speakers at any given volume than the Denon. The DAC also is far superior than the connection methods of my AVR streaming FLAC. She's a pretty girl, I'm happy.

 

[lovinthehd]

True, maybe I worded it wrong. Even at lower volumes (room db wise), there is substantially more bass with the STR. And as you go higher, there's more punch to the speakers at any given volume than the Denon. The DAC also is far superior than the connection methods of my AVR streaming FLAC. She's a pretty girl, I'm happy.

I'd doubt there's substantially more bass, you've likely not done a proper comparison either....but glad you're excited about the prettier unit that costs 8x as much . It's not the DAC particularly being audibly superior when you speak of correction methods, as that is software for the most part and you have different systems.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

True, maybe I worded it wrong. Even at lower volumes (room db wise), there is substantially more bass with the STR. And as you go higher, there's more punch to the speakers at any given volume than the Denon. The DAC also is far superior than the connection methods of my AVR streaming FLAC. She's a pretty girl, I'm happy.

1. As already mentioned, unless it’s unbiased (blind comparison) and level-match comparison, you really can’t be sure of anything.

Human bias is huge. If it looks pretty and costs a lot more, it must sound better in every way possible. We know the feeling.

There is a good reason why companies like McIntosh, Mark Levinson, Krell, etc., make extremely sexy looking electronics that cost a lot of money.

2. Assuming the comparison is blind/unbiased level-matched, the biggest difference is most likely the EQ. It’s possible you prefer the EQ of the Anthem ARC over Audyssey. Some people do, some people don’t. Just preference.

I personally prefer Audyssey Dynamic EQ over Anthem ARC for the same reasons you listed - more bass, more dynamics, more punch. So it’s the EQ.

3. DAC is an extremely mature technology, so the top of the line and bottom of the line DAC will both sound awesome. Any differences will be either the difference in volume (not level matched), bias, or EQ.

Well, it’s fun to buy new toys for boys. No doubt about that.

Hopefully the honeymoon period enthusiasm for this Integrated Amp will last a lot longer for you than it does for many of us.

Yes, we know that feeling well.

 

[PENG]

I'd doubt there's substantially more bass, you've likely not done a proper comparison either....but glad you're excited about the prettier unit that costs 8x as much . It's not the DAC particularly being audibly superior when you speak of correction methods, as that is software for the most part and you have different systems.

True, maybe I worded it wrong. Even at lower volumes (room db wise), there is substantially more bass with the STR. And as you go higher, there's more punch to the speakers at any given volume than the Denon. The DAC also is far superior than the connection methods of my AVR streaming FLAC. She's a pretty girl, I'm happy.

In that case, something does not seem right, so which AVR are you comparing with and are you still using those Polk speakers or the 1038Be are in? Did you compare them in pure direct with no room EQ engaged. I am sure we all are glad that you are so happy with the STR, but especially at low volume there seems no reasons for the bass to be so lacking in the AVR setup. Again, the STR is a nice unit, I own an Anthem power amp and like it too, I am just curious about what's wrong with the AVR.

Regarding the DAC comparison, I find it hard to compare streaming with using the USB-b connector and Foobar. I am quite sure the STR does not have the top or near top DAC chip like the flagship AVRs have, it can't even play DSD higher than 5.6 MHz (edited for clarity). As others mentioned, DACs are so matured now even a cheap one can sound great if well implemented. I have compared roughtly 8 of them (external ones only) within the price range of $100 to $1,200 recently.

 

[WineOfTheVeins]

Thanks for the replies. I'm not a placebo effect kind of person, at all. I'm very perceptive technical and factual. If I didn't notice difference, I was ready to return the STR and pocket $4k. Read other reviews on these Polk a9s. Funny enough other people said the same thing as me. They were disappointed with how flat they sounded until they fed it a proper amp. There is undoubtedly more bass and better sound with the STR. On the same track, I'd have to crank the Denon to the point I thought I was gonna start clipping to get some bass. On the Anthem, even at grandma listening levels, the towers are giving a deep thud that goes through my chest. I wouldn't lie to you guys, just want to give me honest review.
Streaming on the Denon was another reason I returned it. I had choppy lagging,and occasionally "file format not supported" half way through a damn song and it just crashes. Don't get me wrong, the Denon is great for all the features you get for the money, but there's no comparison. Loan an STR or a higher end amp from your dealer on your setup if you run an AVR now and tell me you don't hear a difference.

Yes, as I said in my earlier post, I tried the Polk's with the STR right out of the box. No updates, no room correction loaded, nothing. (It takes like an hour to fully set this thing up and I just wanted to hear some tunes first) Before and after. Still sounded better than the Denon even without the EQ.

The STR DAC isn't as good as AVR DACs? Man.. Ask around, look it up. There's no comparison. They source these from _______ and usually cost thousands just for the DAC. look at the circuitry inside this unit, compare it to any AVR. Enough said.

I was skeptical of how much an amp/preamp could change the way your system sounded, try it for yourself. Another first hand example I have is, my friends BW 2 channel setup. Speakers alone were $30,000. He tried it on a low-midrange Yamaha, then Nakamichi, then Marantz, and finally to a McIntosh. He's never going back. Keep in mind this is a guy who does literally blind tests on equipment and songs, and can guess 9/10 between audio file quality and medium.

The Polk's are probably finding a nice new home in someone's living room........

 

[PENG]

Funny enough other people said the same thing as me. They were disappointed with how flat they sounded until they fed it a proper amp.

I wasn't a fan of the RTi line. If their owners believe feeding those with what they considered a "proper" amp, good for them. Based on specs though, I have no doubt the big RTi A9 can do better with a powerful amplifier, but only if the desired spl (yes, demand due to music peaks included) called for the power. Power not used will have no effects, that is fact.

There is undoubtedly more bass and better sound with the STR. On the same track, I'd have to crank the Denon to the point I thought I was gonna start clipping to get some bass. On the Anthem, even at grandma listening levels, the towers are giving a deep thud that goes through my chest. I wouldn't lie to you guys, just want to give me honest review.

That makes little sense to me, but let's leave it at that, wish I could do some troubleshooting in your room though.

Streaming on the Denon was another reason I returned it. I had choppy lagging,and occasionally "file format not supported" half way through a damn song and it just crashes.

That sounds like a lot to do with your network connection.

Loan an STR or a higher end amp from your dealer on your setup if you run an AVR now and tell me you don't hear a difference.

There is no need to loan one, I have several separate two channel systems (that include components superior in specs to the STR) already, and I have 11 channels of power amps for the HT system, two being from an Anthem 225WX2 amp, so I am very familiar with the difference between my AVRs and separate pre, prepro and power amps. That is, no difference in SQ whatsoever when running well within their limits. I do appreciate the build quality and predicted reliability of the separate components.

The STR DAC isn't as good as AVR DACs? Man.. Ask around, look it up. There's no comparison. They source these from _______ and usually cost thousands just for the DAC. look at the circuitry inside this unit, compare it to any AVR. Enough said.

Do you know which DAC chip is in it? Top lastest D&M AVRs have the 32 bit AK4490 (that's a fact), you can google the specs. Anthem wouldn't even publish it. All I know from their specs is that they can't play all the high resolution formats. I don't believe DSD sounds better than PCM, nor do I believe 24/192 would automatically sound better than 16/44.1, but I believe very much in the importance of the recording/mastering quality of the source. So to me it is important that a good DAC not be limited to the pool size of the media source due to their formats/codecs. I found most of my DSD files are from very high quality recordings so they sound great, not because of the format but because of the recordings. Good thing my DACs can play them all.

I was skeptical of how much an amp/preamp could change the way your system sounded, try it for yourself.

Been there, done that for years, and I am still holding on to my collection of amps, including your favorite brand, I do own one Anthem amp. So if this your first $5000 integrated amp, you are really just started to follow the path that some of us (such as HD and ADTG) have already been on for a a long time, and learned our lessons!

By the way, you came here for advice and was given plenty. As I said before, happy for you, and congratulated you already for acquiring a beautiful amp. I am simply trying to understand why you seem to be having some extreme experience of the difference you are getting, by simply substituting an amp and not even pushing either one to their limit ("grandma listening levels") right?, unless by that you meant really loud level. Also, perhaps some of us felt compelled to air our views, that tend to emphasize on the objective side of things. We don't have to agree on anything subjective in nature, but it is not a bad thing to voice our different opinions while present facts, so I hope this won't turn into unnecessary arguments. And be clear, I have no arguments with your reported experienced, just curious about the cause, and that's why the questions. I have said what I feel like saying so I won't ask any more questions. Lastly, I hope you will pull the trigger on the fantastic 1038 Be, if not yet. They will take the STR to another level for sure.