Svs sb2000 or pb2000

[KEW]

I appreciate the discussion and hope you appreciate that I am simply attempting to reconcile my subjective observations with objective measured facts.
One of my huge disappointments was the JL Audio E112 sealed sub.
Looking at the incredible build of the driver and knowing it was sealed, I really expected it to handily beat my Rythmik (did not yet have the XS15se). It sounded like a ported sub to me!
But maybe I can rule out GD as being the issue because the GD chart for the E112 is pretty good:

The impulse response is not so good:

So, right now, I am thinking it is either:
1) frequency response (after room gain) or Impulse response.
2) Q, but it seems like the end effect of this would show in the measurements.
3) Something measured that I have overlooked
4) Something which the Data-bass measurements do not reveal.

 

[lovinthehd]

I appreciate the discussion and hope you appreciate that I am simply attempting to reconcile my subjective observations with objective measured facts.
One of my huge disappointments was the JL Audio E112 sealed sub.
Looking at the incredible build of the driver and knowing it was sealed, I really expected it to handily beat my Rythmik (did not yet have the XS15se). It sounded like a ported sub to me!
But maybe I can rule out GD as being the issue because the GD chart for the E112 is pretty good:


The impulse response is not so good:

So, right now, I am thinking it is either:
1) frequency response (after room gain) or Impulse response.
2) Q, but it seems like the end effect of this would show in the measurements.
3) Something measured that I have overlooked
4) Something which the Data-bass measurements do not reveal.

I think you put too much into "ported" vs "sealed" overall....

 

[KEW]

I think you put too much into "ported" vs "sealed" overall....

I know you do!

...and I have actually modified my statement to state that IME, ported and sealed subs that incorporate aggressive DSP to attain anechoically flat FR to low 20Hz territory have a sound I find muddy.

If we look at these two situations in Data-Bass, both have poor impulse response (due to ringing in the case of the aggressive EQ on a sealed sub) and an anechoically flat FR. So I can accept that it could be either of those factors. However a sealed sub with no or minor DSP seems to provide what I like.

 

[lovinthehd]

I know you do!

...and I have actually modified my statement to state that IME, ported and sealed subs that incorporate aggressive DSP to attain anechoically flat FR to low 20Hz territory have a sound I find muddy.

If we look at these two situations in Data-Bass, both have poor impulse response and an anechoically flat FR. So I can accept that it could be either of those factors. However a sealed sub with no or minor DSP seems to provide what I like.

List all the sealed and ported subs you've had the experience in-home with (where setup and listening sessions are not in a store environment particularly).

As to sealed subs with eq to bring up the low end, are you talking about further increases with additional eq or just as provided by the sub designer? That they're audible at all times (rather than say being further boosted by the user) I think is a conclusion of yours rather than reality....

 

[shadyJ]

I appreciate the discussion and hope you appreciate that I am simply attempting to reconcile my subjective observations with objective measured facts.
One of my huge disappointments was the JL Audio E112 sealed sub.
Looking at the incredible build of the driver and knowing it was sealed, I really expected it to handily beat my Rythmik (did not yet have the XS15se). It sounded like a ported sub to me!
But maybe I can rule out GD as being the issue because the GD chart for the E112 is pretty good:

The impulse response is not so good:

So, right now, I am thinking it is either:
1) frequency response (after room gain) or Impulse response.
2) Q, but it seems like the end effect of this would show in the measurements.
3) Something measured that I have overlooked
4) Something which the Data-bass measurements do not reveal.

Human hearing does not hear impulse responses. Human hearing does not hear what Q is outside of its effect on the frequency response. I am beginning to think its time to expand on the 'myths about subwoofer' article.

 

[Andrein]

I know there was another thread where delays were discussed of ported vs sealed. And despite the graphs those pro-ported guys just did not want to listen really. Though it is just physics. Given all the same conditions, driver size, design quality, etc the lower air pressure behind the sealed sub driver moving forward just helps it to return quicker back to initial position. This is just plain physics and common sense. You cant argue with that. This at least partly explains that sealed subs to many sound less moody.

 

[lovinthehd]

I know there was another thread where delays were discussed of ported vs sealed. And despite the graphs those pro-ported guys just did not want to listen really. Though it is just physics. Given all the same conditions, driver size, design quality, etc the lower air pressure behind the sealed sub driver moving forward just helps it to return quicker back to initial position. This is just plain physics and common sense. You cant argue with that. This at least partly explains that sealed subs to many sound less moody.

Moody subs are a bitch. It's just an aspect of the overall system, there are advantages and disadvantages to both types of design. You can't just put all sealed and all ported in separate boxes so to speak

 

[shadyJ]

I know there was another thread where delays were discussed of ported vs sealed. And despite the graphs those pro-ported guys just did not want to listen really. Though it is just physics. Given all the same conditions, driver size, design quality, etc the lower air pressure behind the sealed sub driver moving forward just helps it to return quicker back to initial position. This is just plain physics and common sense. You cant argue with that. This at least partly explains that sealed subs to many sound less moody.

That isn't how backspring pressure works at all.

 

[Andrein]

That isn't how backspring pressure works at all.

I like replies like this))) like white is black. End of message. No comments.

 

[Andrein]

Ppt

Moody subs are a bitch. It's just an aspect of the overall system, there are advantages and disadvantages to both types of design. You can't just put all sealed and all ported in separate boxes so to speak

There can be many of reasons for moody sound. I was talking about just one aspect in isolation.

 

[lovinthehd]

Ppt


There can be many of reasons for moody sound. I was talking about just one aspect in isolation.

LOL I have no idea what moody sound is in a sub anyways...it just sounded funny.

 

[Andrein]

LOL I have no idea what moody sound is in a sub anyways...it just sounded funny.

Only now noticed. English is not my native language... Hope everyone understood what it meant in the context of the rest...

 

[lovinthehd]

Only now noticed. English is not my native language... Hope everyone understood what it meant in the context of the rest...

LOL after I last posted I actually thought about you perhaps meaning muddy....which is still more likely about setup/integration or the particular sub....not necessarily if ported or sealed.

 

[shadyJ]

I like replies like this))) like white is black. End of message. No comments.

Sealed subs don't lack backspring pressure, and ported subs don't really have an excess. That generally isn't a factor in a competently designed sealed or ported subwoofer. It isn't a serious factor as a restoring force. I don't know what else to say. I don't know where you picked up that information, but it is just not correct. There is a wealth of good information out there about drivers and cone control, all available in a google search.

 

[KEW]

List all the sealed and ported subs you've had the experience in-home with (where setup and listening sessions are not in a store environment particularly).

As to sealed subs with eq to bring up the low end, are you talking about further increases with additional eq or just as provided by the sub designer? That they're audible at all times (rather than say being further boosted by the user) I think is a conclusion of yours rather than reality....

After the holidays, let me start a new thread focusing specifically on this topic and I will circulate the subs I can get my hands on and measure them (in-room at LP). The list of subs I have heard in my room obviously is not so great (only a hand full) as the number I have heard, but if I am going to list them, I would rather re-listen to the ones I still have available and perhaps be able to rank order them based on how offensive I find them for boomy, muddy bass.

I am talking about the EQ provided by the manufacturer not Audyssey (Audyssey may impart similar ringing, but it never has in my room)!
Let me give you an example of the aggressive EQ I am referring to.
Here is the FR (as provided by SVS)SVS SB12-NSD, you should recognize that the flat extension (anechoic) to ~30Hz and the steep roll-off below that (about 20dB down at 15Hz) are nothing like the natural response of a sealed sub:

For a less aggressive EQ, we can use the FR (as provided by SVS) for the SB2000. Note (purple line) how there is a very smooth roll-off starting above 30 HZ and their is still viable output (anechoically down 15dB) at 10Hz. The blue line shows SVS's expected response in a small to mid sized room (which is consistent with the OP's and Andrien's rooms) after room gain is factored in.

So both Josh and SVS consider after room-gain response as a relevant factor in making this decision.

 

[Andrein]

Sealed subs don't lack backspring pressure, and ported subs don't really have an excess. That generally isn't a factor in a competently designed sealed or ported subwoofer. It isn't a serious factor as a restoring force. I don't know what else to say. I don't know where you picked up that information, but it is just not correct. There is a wealth of good information out there about drivers and cone control, all available in a google search.

Even svs article on sealed vs ported says delays are better in sealed subs.

https://www.svsound.com/blogs/svs/75367747-sealed-vs-ported

You can million times repeat 'it is not right, it is not right'. It is just a common sense. The moving forward cone of sealed sub creates lower pressure inside which does not happen with ported. Just compare how easy ported sub cone is moving if you push it with your hands vs sealed. Sb2000 and pb2000 have same drivers so it is a proper comparisson. It might be not the most important factor but it contributes to differences between sub designs.

This also partly explains the differences in max spl appart from enclosure type/size between sealed and ported subs having exactly the same power amp and drivers.

 

[shadyJ]

Even svs article on sealed vs ported says delays are better in sealed subs.

https://www.svsound.com/blogs/svs/75367747-sealed-vs-ported

You can million times repeat 'it is not right, it is not right'. It is just a common sense. The moving forward cone of sealed sub creates lower pressure inside which does not happen with ported. Just compare how easy ported sub cone is moving if you push it with your hands vs ported. Sb2000 and pb2000 have same drivers so it is a proper comparisson. It might be not the most important factor but it contributes to differences between sub designs.

This also partly explains the differences in max spl appart from enclosure type/size between sealed and ported subs having exactly the same power amp and drivers.

Yes, sealed can have lower phase delay, but who cares if it is not audible. I doubt very much that the engineers at SVS would argue that group delay in their ported subs are audibly worse than in their sealed models. While I have not used the PB-2000 or SB-2000, I have used the PB16-Ultra and SB16-Ultra, and I didn't hear the PB16-Ultra to be any less articulate than the SB16-Ultra. I have also used many other subs in both ported and sealed configurations, and I have never heard the sealed configuration to be 'tighter' or whatever you want to call it. Ported subs do see a great deal of backspring pressure on the driver, although not below their tuning frequencies where they do not see much backspring pressure. Hint: you can not move the move the driver faster than the its tuning frequency by hand, so your example is invalid.

 

[Andrein]

Yes, sealed can have lower phase delay, but who cares if it is not audible. I doubt very much that the engineers at SVS would argue that group delay in their ported subs are audibly worse than in their sealed models. While I have not used the PB-2000 or SB-2000, I have used the PB16-Ultra and SB16-Ultra, and I didn't hear the PB16-Ultra to be any less articulate than the SB16-Ultra. I have also used many other subs in both ported and sealed configurations, and I have never heard the sealed configuration to be 'tighter' or whatever you want to call it. Ported subs do see a great deal of backspring pressure on the driver, although not below their tuning frequencies where they do not see much backspring pressure. Hint: you can not move the move the driver faster than the its tuning frequency by hand, so your example is invalid.

It is valid. Because in the case of sealed sub there is an extra force that is trying to move the cone in the opposite direction and reduces the max spl and delays in the same time. The question what is audible or not is subjective. Something not audible for you is audible for others hence svs statement on delays.

From the same article:
"A properly designed sealed subwoofer will typically exhibit less phase rotation, lower group delay, and reduced ringing in the time domain. These characteristics make the sealed subwoofer a natural choice for critical music applications, and are typically described by enthusiasts as sounding tighter and more articulate, with less perceived overhang."

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

It is valid. Because in the case of sealed sub there is an extra force that is trying to move the cone in the opposite direction and reduces the max spl and delays in the same time. The question what is audible or not is subjective. Something not audible for you is audible for others hence svs statement on delays.

From the same article:
"A properly designed sealed subwoofer will typically exhibit less phase rotation, lower group delay, and reduced ringing in the time domain. These characteristics make the sealed subwoofer a natural choice for critical music applications, and are typically described by enthusiasts as sounding tighter and more articulate, with less perceived overhang."

That’s because SVS has sealed customers too. Do you really think they’d alienate a whole group of potential customers?
Tom V(the V in SVS) of psa has even said you can’t tell the difference between properly vented and sealed subs operating within their limits.

 

[shadyJ]

It is valid. Because in the case of sealed sub there is an extra force that is trying to move the cone in the opposite direction and reduces the max spl and delays in the same time. The question what is audible or not is subjective. Something not audible for you is audible for others hence svs statement on delays.

From the same article:
"A properly designed sealed subwoofer will typically exhibit less phase rotation, lower group delay, and reduced ringing in the time domain. These characteristics make the sealed subwoofer a natural choice for critical music applications, and are typically described by enthusiasts as sounding tighter and more articulate, with less perceived overhang."

You don't seem to understand how enclosures work with ported subwoofers. They do have a lot of backspring pressure. You might look this fact up or better yet ask the guys at SVS about it, if you want to appeal to their authority. And when I say the phase delays that were are discussing is not audible, I am not talking about just my own experiences. I do so based on the available research, and I have been through much of it. Luckily for us, one of the most comprehensive studies done in this area is freely available online.

Note how carefully SVS is in wording the ostensible advantages of sealed subs: "described by enthusiasts." They won't make that claim themselves, nor will they stand behind it, because it nonsense and they know it. In that same article they go on to reject that nonsense by explaining how the frequencies that have the cycle of delay are too low to matter.

I would say that ported is better for music that has actual deep frequency content. Driver motion in ported can stay in linear operating range far better at deep frequencies than sealed, which can see an eruption in very audible distortion from the driver flying past its linear excursion.