Outlaw Model 5000 @ 4 ohms?

[nickwin]

Hi, looking for some feedback regarding the Model 5000 with 4 ohm speakers. Is anyone using one with 5 4 ohm speakers? How is the SQ at 4 ohms?

Ive found with some of these smaller budget amps they sound great at 8 ohms, but sometimes sound strained or thin/harsh with 4 ohm speakers. Is that the case with this amp?

I have no doubt this thing will crank out the volume at 4 ohms, my question is will it maintain its composure doing so?

Thanks

 

[Verdinut]

Outlaw clearly specifies that their Model 5000 is designed to handle 4 ohm loads without any problem:
180 watts per channel with all 5 channels driven simultaneously at a low THD of less than 0.03%.
Those are excellent specs.
You shouldn't doubt about its SQ performance. It will obviously meet those specs.

 

[PENG]

According to Gene's REVIEW, you should have little to worry about.

 

[M Code]

The Outlaw 5000 is a solid amplifier and performs fine into 4 Ohms. It is built by the same Taiwan factory that builds for Parasound, SpeakerCraft, Harman/Kardon...

Just my $0.02..

 

[nickwin]

According to Gene's REVIEW, you should have little to worry about.

Well, one of my concerns actually came from the review; capacitance. I can’t find a single comparable amp that has this little capacitance. For example another budget amp I have owned the Emotiva upa500 (only rated 80 Watts per ch) has 40,000uf compared to the 5000s 34000uf.

Interestingly though most the emotiva amps have smaller transformers than the 5000 (smaller transformer but more capacitance).

I’m curious what this means for the model 5000 in real world use? Will it mean less dynamic capabilities but more continuous output?

 

[everettT]

Well, one of my concerns actually came from the review; capacitance. I can’t find a single comparable amp that has this little capacitance. For example another budget amp I have owned the Emotiva upa500 (only rated 80 Watts per ch) has 40,000uf compared to the 5000s 34000uf.

Interestingly though most the emotiva amps have smaller transformers than the 5000 (smaller transformer but more capacitance).

I’m curious what this means for the model 5000 in real world use? Will it mean less dynamic capabilities but more continuous output?

Didn't the review cover that? What are your speakers?

 

[nickwin]

Didn't the review cover that? What are your speakers?

Did it? Maybe I missed it. All I caught was that it will will just barely hit a “10% ripple” and that better amps will use more. What does that mean in the real world?

As as I can tell it’s basically ALL amps use more capacitance. What is this going to sound like?

If it didn’t make a difference I don’t think all these companies would be using more as capacitors are one of the most expensive parts in an amp.

Speakers are BG radia x3 and x5. Rated 4 ohm nominal 90db/watt. I can’t find a sensitivity/impedance curve to conform thy though.

They tend to make lesser amps sound thin and harsh. My AVR didn’t like them at all. Large room also.

 

[everettT]

Did it? Maybe I missed it. All I caught was that it will will just barely hit a “10% ripple” and that better amps will use more. What does that mean in the real world?

As as I can tell it’s basically ALL amps use more capacitance. What is this going to sound like?

Never mind, I remember your speakers from the UPA thread. Trying to determine if other speakers sound good just based on the 4 ohm rating is tuff because there other variables such as phase angles. My recommendation is to move up to a for sure amp and not stay in the same price range as your UPA , just for your piece of mind. If you want to stay close to the price range pick up a pro amp for the LnR. I'm gonna respectfuly bow out as that's all the input I have. Good luck

 

[highfigh]

Well, one of my concerns actually came from the review; capacitance. I can’t find a single comparable amp that has this little capacitance. For example another budget amp I have owned the Emotiva upa500 (only rated 80 Watts per ch) has 40,000uf compared to the 5000s 34000uf.

Interestingly though most the emotiva amps have smaller transformers than the 5000 (smaller transformer but more capacitance).

I’m curious what this means for the model 5000 in real world use? Will it mean less dynamic capabilities but more continuous output?

The power transformer is the thing that determines how robust the power supply is- they can limit current if they're not right for the application. Next, it's the rectification, followed by the filtering. The size of capacitors has more to do with filtering than reserve- if you start to hear dissonance in the low frequencies at high power, the filtering is insufficient but honestly, if you can hear the effects of the power supply at high SPL, congratulations (unless it's badly designed or faulty).

 

[2channel lover]

Hi, looking for some feedback regarding the Model 5000 with 4 ohm speakers. Is anyone using one with 5 4 ohm speakers? How is the SQ at 4 ohms?

Ive found with some of these smaller budget amps they sound great at 8 ohms, but sometimes sound strained or thin/harsh with 4 ohm speakers. Is that the case with this amp?

I have no doubt this thing will crank out the volume at 4 ohms, my question is will it maintain its composure doing so?

Thanks

See post #3...there is a review of this model on the AH site...it seems to pass all the benchmark tests with any problem...you will be fine with 4 ohm spkrs. You're going to pay for it, but if you just want more power @ 4 ohms...the monolith 5 ch should be an option.

 

[nickwin]

Never mind, I remember your speakers from the UPA thread. Trying to determine others if speakers sound good just based on the 4 ohm rating is tuff because there other variables such as phase angles. My recommendation is to move up to a for sure amp and not stay in the same price range as your UPA , just for your piece of mind. If you want to stay close to the price range pick up a pro amp for the LnR. I'm gonna respectfuly bow out as that's all the input I have. Good luck

Good point about different speakers, I do wonder if there is something that makes these particular speakers a harder load than there specs lead me to believe.

Interesting you brought up the UPA500. I might have been saying something slightly different at the time but I decided that the UPA500 actually sounded good with these speakers at moderate volumes, and really good when only using 2 channels. It was when driving all 5 relatively hard I felt like it fell apart. I blamed this on the undersized transformers the UPA500 uses but I really don't know.

I went to a similarly rated Parasound HCA855A next thinking with its much larger transformer and more capacitance that would do the trick, but much to my surprise the 855a sounds thin and brittle with these speakers at pretty much any level (reminds me of an AVR!).


Emotiva seemed like a good match sonically, so, the next logical step is a slightly bigger Emotiva amp, but I hear a lot more about the Model 5000 than the Emotiva equivalents so I wondered if the model 5000 was a better amp.

Anyone compared the Model 5000 to a comparable Emotiva amp (I guess it would be the A5175 currently, and the LPA1 and UPA5 before that)?

I'd love a Monolith 5x200 in this room but its way out of my budget. I do find it interesting the the Monolith, with less than 2x the power of the model 5000 has 5x the capacitance. That has to do something for the sound, right?

 

[nickwin]

See post #3...there is a review of this model on the AH site...it seems to pass all the benchmark tests with any problem...you will be fine with 4 ohm spkrs. You're going to pay for it, but if you just want more power @ 4 ohms...the monolith 5 ch should be an option.

IMO Just because it puts out the power on the bench doesn't mean it will sound good doing so with 4 ohm speakers. Think of an AVR, they can usually crank out some decent wattage but they tend to sound like crap with 4 ohm speakers at any volume.

 

[highfigh]

Good point about different speakers, I do wonder if there is something that makes these particular speakers a harder load than there specs lead me to believe.

Interesting you brought up the UPA500. I might have been saying something slightly different at the time but I decided that the UPA500 actually sounded good with these speakers at moderate volumes, and really good when only using 2 channels. It was when driving all 5 relatively hard I felt like it fell apart. I blamed this on the undersized transformers the UPA500 uses but I really don't know.

I went to a similarly rated Parasound HCA855A next thinking with its much larger transformer and more capacitance that would do the trick, but much to my surprise the 855a sounds thin and brittle with these speakers at pretty much any level (reminds me of an AVR!).


Emotiva seemed like a good match sonically, so, the next logical step is a slightly bigger Emotiva amp, but I hear a lot more about the Model 5000 than the Emotiva equivalents so I wondered if the model 5000 was a better amp.

Anyone compared the Model 5000 to a comparable Emotiva amp (I guess it would be the A5175 currently, and the LPA1 and UPA5 before that)?

I'd love a Monolith 5x200 in this room but its way out of my budget. I do find it interesting the the Monolith, with less than 2x the power of the model 5000 has 5x the capacitance. That has to do something for the sound, right?

Care to describe the listening room? If it started to sound thin and brittle, I would guess that the room is reflective and you're hearing multiple reflections from multiple speakers and it's occurring because the SPL is exceeding the usable limit for the room's acoustical characteristics (specifically, the RT60).

 

[nickwin]

Care to describe the listening room? If it started to sound thin and brittle, I would guess that the room is reflective and you're hearing multiple reflections from multiple speakers and it's occurring because the SPL is exceeding the usable limit for the room's acoustical characteristics (specifically, the RT60).

That is certainly possible. Its a big room, 24x24x8, thin carpet over concrete, wood walls and a drop ceiling. The room is EQed with ARC.

I think its also very possible that its 350VA transformer can't keep up with 5 4 ohm speakers asking for 120wpc. Thats a theorretical 600 watts drawing off a 350va transformer...

Definitely a grass is greener scenario, the Parasound I went to, despite being overbuilt, sounds thin at all volumes. Maybe just a bad match with these speakers which are pretty hot in the upper freqiencies. Its certainly a robust little amp, it shouldn't really have any issues with 4ohms but for whatever reason it doesn't seem to be a good combo.

 

[KEW]

What are you using for your pre-pro?

 

[nickwin]

Currently Anthem D2. The progression was old Denon AVR (3805) > AVR with UPA500 > UMC1 with UPA500 (this probably had the most subjectivity pleasing sound) > D2 with Parasound HCA855A.

Unfortunately I didn't get to listen to the D2 + UPA500 combo because I sold the UMC and the UPA500 at the same time.

The AVR sounded very thin and harsh and would break up during loud passages, the AVR + UPA500 was a step up, but still sounded a little flat in the mids. UMC + UPA500 really brought the bass and mids out and was just really enjoyable. The UMC was just too buggy though and no EQ.

D2 + HCA855a is once again sounding thin and a little fatiguing, almost a little reminiscent of the AVR. This is what made my think maybe the speakers low impedance was the culpret. The AVR sounded fine @ 8 ohm but downright bad at 4. Looking at the 855a specs, it shouldn't have any issue, but thats just what it sounds like. I had really high hopes for the Parasound but its just not a good match. Too thin in the mids and the treble sounds harsh.

Ive used the D2 in other systems and really like its sound. Possible its not a good match for these speakers but I think its more likely that it has to do with the amp/speaker combination. Maybe I just need a slightly dark laid back treble amp for these?

 

[KEW]

Do you still have another amp?

 

[nickwin]

Sadly no. In retrospect it would have been really nice to compare with the HCA855A and UPA500 through the D2. I have to say, considering the UPA500s modest (borderline wimpy) specs, it sounded really good and didn't seem to have any issues until I was really pushing it to the limit.

Ive made some questionable transactions this year lol. I recently sold my Emotiva LPA1 that I used in another system to a buddy and soon after realized the HCA855a wasn't meeting my expectations. Immediately realized the LPA1 probably would have been perfect in this room.

What a crazy hobby haha

 

[KEW]

Ive used the D2 in other systems and really like its sound. Possible its not a good match for these speakers but I think its more likely that it has to do with the amp/speaker combination. Maybe I just need a slightly dark laid back treble amp for these?

I also would be inclined to believe it is a matter of the speakers demanding a lot out of an amp. Any modern electronics should be clean! Any amp that colors the sound (like slightly dark laid back treble) is essentially distorting the sound. Reviewers love to talk like this as if they have mystical powers of hearing, and if you believe them, it is easy to convince you hear the same thing. However, companies like Anthen, Yamaha, Denon, Emotiva all have good designers/engineers who can design and build a clean neutral pre or amp!

 

[nickwin]

I also would be inclined to believe it is a matter of the speakers demanding a lot out of an amp. Any modern electronics should be clean! Any amp that colors the sound (like slightly dark laid back treble) is essentially distorting the sound. Reviewers love to talk like this as if they have mystical powers of hearing, and if you believe them, it is easy to convince you hear the same thing. However, companies like Anthen, Yamaha, Denon, Emotiva all have good designers/engineers who can design and build a clean neutral pre or amp!

I think your right. For whatever reason I think these speakers are a difficult load and are tripping up some amps. The AVR was literally breaking up driving these speakers at modest levels, yet it drove other speakers moderately well.

This begs the question, what trait(s) am I looking for in an amp to be able to handle these loads? On paper the 855a is more robust than the UPA500 in every way (heatsink, transformer, capacitance...), yet in this case the UPA500 seemed to keep its composure much better than the Parasound. The parasound is class a/ab, I wonder if that has something to do with it?

Maybe UPA500 (or A500) + a 2 ch pro amp for the left and right is the answer. I could live with the 855a for HT, but its just not enjoyable for music and this room is 50-50 music - movies. It sounds strained. Period.