Denon x1300w, enough power for my setup?

[yepimonfire]

I am replacing my onkyo with an x1300w. My room is 20x12, and the mlp is 11’ from the front speakers. Klipsch “in room” sensitivity rating is 93dB for the l/r 150m, and 96dB for the 250c. Surrounds are 5.5’ away and 94dB, heights are 6’ away and 90dB.

Klipsch rates their sensitivity by adding 4dB to the anechoic measurement to account for room gain, so we could subtract that to get 89dB, 92dB, 90dB, and 86dB. My room is treated acoustically, it’s not “dead”, but pretty quiet with little reverberation, so I have no idea how much room gain I’m losing by treating it. I know my level trims didn’t change significantly after treatment, I think it was like 1dB in each channel except the heights.

I generally listen at -10dB, so I need 95dB at the couch from each speaker, the x1300w is rated at 80w in stereo, but S&V benched the x1200w (previous model) at >100w in stereo and about 48w with 7ch driven.

If we assume anechoic ratings only, this gives me about 96dB from the l/r at 48w, the surrounds and center will only need about 25w to acheive the same spl, heights need the same power as the l/r. This adds up to 275w total ignoring room gain. 48x7 is 336, so technically, I should have enough headroom, correct?

I realize ACD tests aren’t always representative of performance with regular content, but it’s a worst case scenario if all 7ch decide to blast away at once.

The onkyo (NR 656) benched at 90w into 7ch, so almost double. To get the same power from Denon, I’d need to go up to something like the 4400h, which just isn’t in my price range.

Last question, can something like this be used if I decide to add external amps in the future? https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/DI100?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIruCHu7LC1wIVF7XACh0b1wBUEAQYAiABEgLbH_D_BwE


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[lovinthehd]

I'll leave you to your calculations, you seem to know how it works.

How would you add power amps, the X1300 doesn't have pre-outs. Even if it did have pre-outs why would you use a box like that?

 

[yepimonfire]

I'll leave you to your calculations, you seem to know how it works.

How would you add power amps, the X1300 doesn't have pre-outs. Even if it did have pre-outs why would you use a box like that?

An active DI box takes signals from a power amp and attentuates them to line levels, it does other things too, but that’s the reason I’d use it. I’d use the box to convert the speaker level signals to line level signals to drive an amplifier.


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[everettT]

An active DI box takes signals from a power amp and attentuates them to line levels, it does other things too, but that’s the reason I’d use it. I’d use the box to convert the speaker level signals to line level signals to drive an amplifier.


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That active DI box is really a bad idea. You would have to measure it, but I've never seen one that didn't introduce distortion. Just step up to an avr with the features you need and not monkey around with additional garbage products.

 

[PENG]

I realize ACD tests aren’t always representative of performance with regular content, but it’s a worst case scenario if all 7ch decide to blast away at once.

I agree with HD, you obviously know your stuff so for calculations especially just using online calculators, I too, will leave that to you to figure that out.

My 2 cents would be:

- we have had this conversation before, there are 0, or near 0 chance that you would get all 7 channel to blast away at once to the same maximum peak level. Surely they may "blast away at once" so you are correct in that sense, but not, or hardly to the same "maximum peak" level all at once. When they do all "blast away", if at or near the maximum level of that particular movie or whatever (except the so called 7 ch stereo), it wouldn't last long. For short moment peaks, the power supply's (those typically found in D&M AVRs) overload capability can handle those moments, to a point of course or it would just shutdown to protect itself. Remember, this coming from someone who has taken lots of measurements using the proper meters.

- I agree you may not get much room gain due to your room treatment, may be even 0 gain but rest assure it won't be negative. (I assume you know that too, just want to be sure).

- I don't think the X1300W can do the job for you base on the given info. Can you not bite the bullet and go for a X4200w, x3300w or x4300h from ACFL if not Amazon?

 

[yepimonfire]

I agree with HD, you obviously know your stuff so for calculations especially just using online calculators, I too, will leave that to you to figure that out.

My 2 cents would be:

- we have had this conversation before, there are 0, or near 0 chance that you would get all 7 channel to blast away at once to the same maximum peak level. Surely they may "blast away at once" so you are correct in that sense, but not, or hardly to the same "maximum peak" level all at once. When they do all "blast away", if at or near the maximum level of that particular movie or whatever (except the so called 7 ch stereo), it wouldn't last long. For short moment peaks, the power supply's (those typically found in D&M AVRs) overload capability can handle those moments, to a point of course or it would just shutdown to protect itself. Remember, this coming from someone who has taken lots of measurements using the proper meters.

- I agree you may not get much room gain due to your room treatment, may be even 0 gain but rest assure it won't be negative. (I assume you know that too, just want to be sure).

- I don't think the X1300W can do the job for you base on the given info. Can you not bite the bullet and go for a X4200w, x3300w or x4300h from ACFL if not Amazon?

I would assume it’s current throttling that kicks in and drops the output, the question is, how long does it take for that to happen? Movies rarely have loud peaks for more than a few seconds at 0dBfs, so I’m not really sure whether or not it would be an issue.


The price difference of the 3300w or the 4300h is around $200-$400 respectively, and based on bench testing, the 4300 only manages 75w ACD, hardly more than 2dB of headroom. It would make more sense to use a high to line converter at that point and something like an inuke 1000 to offload the front three, which are the farthest from the mlp and therefore require the most power.

As for room contributions to the spl, I got to wondering if it would be possible to determine the amount by measuring the spl at 1m, and again at the mlp? In full space, the inverse square law states that there is a 6dB drop for every doubling of distance, in rooms with reflective surfaces, this doesn’t apply the same way. Theoretically, there should be a 10.5dB drop in output at 11’, if there isn’t, could it be assumed that the difference between calculated loss and actual loss could be added to the anechoic sensitivity measurement?


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[PENG]

I would assume it’s current throttling that kicks in and drops the output, the question is, how long does it take for that to happen? Movies rarely have loud peaks for more than a few seconds at 0dBfs, so I’m not really sure whether or not it would be an issue.


The price difference of the 3300w or the 4300h is around $200-$400 respectively, and based on bench testing, the 4300 only manages 75w ACD, hardly more than 2dB of headroom. It would make more sense to use a high to line converter at that point and something like an inuke 1000 to offload the front three, which are the farthest from the mlp and therefore require the most power.

As for room contributions to the spl, I got to wondering if it would be possible to determine the amount by measuring the spl at 1m, and again at the mlp? In full space, the inverse square law states that there is a 6dB drop for every doubling of distance, in rooms with reflective surfaces, this doesn’t apply the same way. Theoretically, there should be a 10.5dB drop in output at 11’, if there isn’t, could it be assumed that the difference between calculated loss and actual loss could be added to the anechoic sensitivity measurement?


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I agree the x3300w makes more sense for the little output difference, but I just like the fact the X4200W and X4300H (also the X3400H) have the very decent AK4458 DAC, that could be audible psychologically. It is easy for you to measure the spl from 1m, 2m and at 11' to see the effect of the room in terms of spl vs distance. No matter what I am sure you will get less than the 10.5 dB drop at 11' that only applies to anechoic or open field, or in a super large room. Even well treated, I bet it would drop about 8.5 to 9 dB max.

 

[highfigh]

An active DI box takes signals from a power amp and attentuates them to line levels, it does other things too, but that’s the reason I’d use it. I’d use the box to convert the speaker level signals to line level signals to drive an amplifier.


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Why would you expect to get the best sound using a DI box? What box are you considering?

95dB on a regular basis is damn loud, especially if it's really full range. Many live music venues try to limit the level to ~95dB and even outdoor venues do this- Summerfest is our biggest music festival (actually, it's arguably considered to be the World's largest) maintains this limit and anyone who goes there and doesn't wear hearing protection is a fool. Their 95dB is measured at the board, but it's still very loud and there's not a single home theater that sounds the same, mainly because it's outside but also because the system produces output that won't be matched.

Buy an AVR with preamp outs if you're considering more power.

 

[Steve81]

I am replacing my onkyo with an x1300w. My room is 20x12, and the mlp is 11’ from the front speakers. Klipsch “in room” sensitivity rating is 93dB for the l/r 150m, and 96dB for the 250c. Surrounds are 5.5’ away and 94dB, heights are 6’ away and 90dB.

Don't have to guess too much on your L/C/Rs, S&V rated the 150Ms at 88dB and the 250C at 91dB sensitivity with 2.83V.

I generally listen at -10dB, so I need 95dB at the couch from each speaker

I heard you're looking for more than just -10dB from ref...

Movies rarely have loud peaks for more than a few seconds at 0dBfs, so I’m not really sure whether or not it would be an issue.

For ACD, I'd say it's not an issue at all. I don't know about you, but I can't name a single movie that peaks all channels simultaneously at 0dBFS for several seconds, with the additional caveat that a substantial portion of the energy isn't being redirected to the subs via bass mgmt.

 

[Steve81]

Last question, can something like this be used if I decide to add external amps in the future? https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/DI100?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIruCHu7LC1wIVF7XACh0b1wBUEAQYAiABEgLbH_D_BwE

I guess if you're desperate enough. The problems I see are:

1. It has input attenuation, but it looks like just a couple of -20dB switches, so not exactly a good level of control for trying to match the speaker level outputs of your amps to the input of the amplifier, and having the levels match properly across the board with the rest of your setup.

2. Mum seems to be the word on actual performance specifications, i.e. FR, THD, noise, etc.

3. You're adding more points for distortion and noise to get introduced into the signal chain, i.e. the box itself and the AVR's built in amplifiers, versus a preamp output directly to an external amp.

 

[yepimonfire]

I agree the x3300w makes more sense for the little output difference, but I just like the fact the X4200W and X4300H (also the X3400H) have the very decent AK4458 DAC, that could be audible psychologically. It is easy for you to measure the spl from 1m, 2m and at 11' to see the effect of the room in terms of spl vs distance. No matter what I am sure you will get less than the 10.5 dB drop at 11' that only applies to anechoic or open field, or in a super large room. Even well treated, I bet it would drop about 8.5 to 9 dB max.

So does the onkyo I had before it blew up, and it doesn’t really sound any different from any other dac. The x4300h does 11ch processing, and I’d rather have that, but trying to keep costs down.


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[PENG]

So does the onkyo I had before it blew up, and it doesn’t really sound any different from any other dac. The x4300h does 11ch processing, and I’d rather have that, but trying to keep costs down.


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Then you maybe better off with the x3300w and save $100-$200. You read the AH review on the 3300 right?

 

[yepimonfire]

Then you maybe better off with the x3300w and save $100-$200. You read the AH review on the 3300 right?

Yup. Again, only a 2dB difference though. The x1300w is $299, and the 3300w is $499. For the extra $200, I could upgrade my 150ms to 160ms and gain an extra 3dB sensitivity.


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[everettT]

Yup. Again, only a 2dB difference though. The x1300w is $299, and the 3300w is $499. For the extra $200, I could upgrade my 150ms to 160ms and gain an extra 3dB sensitivity.


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Or you can get the better AVR and say screw the 3db sensitivity as you probably don't need it and wouldn't use it. Then when the next upgrade bug comes you can expand your horizons and upgrade to better speakers overall.
You have proclaimed that room correction isn't your thing, but have you tried xt32 ? And as mentioned getting preouts not only allow for "power amps" but the options to insert dsp, and crossovers if wanted or needed.

 

[yepimonfire]

Or you can get the better AVR and say screw the 3db sensitivity as you probably don't need it and wouldn't use it. Then when the next upgrade bug comes you can expand your horizons and upgrade to better speakers overall.
You have proclaimed that room correction isn't your thing, but have you tried xt32 ? And as mentioned getting preouts not only allow for "power amps" but the options to insert dsp, and crossovers if wanted or needed.

No I haven’t. I’m going to give multeq xt/xt32 a shot though. From what I’ve gathered, the app allows you to set a cutoff on the frequency it corrects, so nothing else, it might be useful for bass problems. I ordered the x1300w from crutchfield, with their liberal return policy, I’ll probably test it out at some higher volumes on movies to determine if it’s enough or not, if not, I’ll spring for the 3300w.


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[PENG]

No I haven’t. I’m going to give multeq xt/xt32 a shot though. From what I’ve gathered, the app allows you to set a cutoff on the frequency it corrects, so nothing else, it might be useful for bass problems. I ordered the x1300w from crutchfield, with their liberal return policy, I’ll probably test it out at some higher volumes on movies to determine if it’s enough or not, if not, I’ll spring for the 3300w.


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You seem like someone who would enjoy playing around with features and settings such as REQ/Editor App etc., so you may want to bite the bullet. $200 is not a lot of money to spend on toys. The 3300 qualifies to be considered mid range, the 1300 is at entry level, that doesn't seem to match your profile. Entry level models typically suffer from most of the cost cutting measures too.

 

[lovinthehd]

I think it's also worth part of that premium for the 3300 to get XT32, I think it's significantly better than XT, particularly the ability to set delay/level for two subs. Might want to read about the adventures @Pogre had with the Audyssey app and his Marantz, too.

 

[yepimonfire]

I think it's also worth part of that premium for the 3300 to get XT32, I think it's significantly better than XT, particularly the ability to set delay/level for two subs. Might want to read about the adventures @Pogre had with the Audyssey app and his Marantz, too.

The app works on the 1300w and the sub outputs can be adjusted independently as well according to the manual. It seems the major differences is a bit less power and xt vs xt32. The xt has more filters on the low end for the satellites, which is useful since I cross my mains and center over at 60hz, and I have some strange raggedness from 100hz-200hz (even though it’s not really audible with real content).

The app is something I will probably waste hours on goofing with on days off from work lol

 

[lovinthehd]

The app works on the 1300w and the sub outputs can be adjusted independently as well according to the manual. It seems the major differences is a bit less power and xt vs xt32. The xt has more filters on the low end for the satellites, which is useful since I cross my mains and center over at 60hz, and I have some strange raggedness from 100hz-200hz (even though it’s not really audible with real content).

The app is something I will probably waste hours on goofing with on days off from work lol

Didn't know the app extended the abilities of the 1300....assumed it was the usual simple internal split of subwoofer signal and couldn't be adjusted for output as you indicate, let alone delay....nor did I see such in the 1300 manual, got a link to the page where that's confirmed?

 

[yepimonfire]

Didn't know the app extended the abilities of the 1300....assumed it was the usual simple internal split of subwoofer signal and couldn't be adjusted for output as you indicate, let alone delay....nor did I see such in the 1300 manual, got a link to the page where that's confirmed?

https://usa.denon.com/us/product/hometheater/upgrades/audysseymulteqeditorapp

http://manuals.denon.com/AVRX1300W/NA/EN/GFNFSYwwqdpazi.php

It states right in the manual that the distance can be adjusted for subwoofer 1 and subwoofer 2.

Based on my calculations, 47w (worst case scenario ACD at full blast) should give me 95dB from the front L/R. If you run the calculations based on the 2ch driven, @8 ohms, and @ 4ohms, 5ch driven, and 7ch driven bench results, you come up with around 14.5 amps into both the 5ch and 7ch measurements. Obviously, the 2ch rating is voltage limited whereas the multichannel is current limited. The 2ch 8ohm measurement shows an rms voltage of 28v, which is fairly typical in avr supply rails.

At 95dB, the surrounds combined will require 20w and 2.3 amps, the heights, 70w combined and 4 amps, the L/R, 100w combined and 5 amps, the center, 20w and 1.6 amps, for a total ACD current draw of 12.9 amps, leaving about 1.6 amps of headroom. This is based on completely anechoic sensitivity, and worst case scenario 0dBfs 7ch continuous signal. Obviously, dynamic power ratings are higher, since there is always a bit of reserve current, and current limiting doesn’t take effect instantly. Because of the dynamic nature of multichannel film tracks, I should have absolutely no problem at -10dB from reference, even if I blasted full bandwidth pink noise through all seven channels I’d probably be fine.

95% of the time, my “theoretical” power/spl calculations seem to translate pretty well into the real world when tested, for example, I calculated the NR 656’s voltage/amps/watts based on multichannel bench results and theorized I should be able to achieve 102dB into 2ch at 120 hz, where my speakers dip down to 4 ohms, and 11’ before clipping. Testing that theory, I got 105dB before audible distortion.



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