Rotel AR-12 vs NAD D3020

[Jeremy257]

I'd like to power my new bookshelves with an integrated that has optical in and a DAC. I am looking at a new NAD 3020 or a mint condition used Rotel AR-12. Does anyone have any input on these choices? I'd really like to stay around $400 for this casual listening, second system.

 

[killdozzer]

I'd like to power my new bookshelves with an integrated that has optical in and a DAC. I am looking at a new NAD 3020 or a mint condition used Rotel AR-12. Does anyone have any input on these choices? I'd really like to stay around $400 for this casual listening, second system.

I've had experience with both. I'd say NAD has better connectivity and I've seen a lot more of positive reviews for NAD. I prefer the B type of USB that NAD has to the A type that is used for memory sticks on Rotel. I think that Rotel is better when it comes to amplification. Rotel is AB amp with 2x60Wpch into 8ohm both channel driven. NAD d3020 is 2x30wpch into 8 and it is ClassD.

Which speakers do you have, how power hungry are they? How loud are you gonna go with these?

I was seriously considering both, but I gave up on them because of low power (mind you, I have a medium size room, you might find these amps have sufficient power for you, especially Rotel).

Is that some sort of a deal you're looking at? NAD page states 499$ for the d3020.

Rotel is suppose to come with a Bluetooth dongle. This would be a tipping point for me, I guess; I'd go for Rotel if it comes with BT and I'd opt for NAD if the power it offers is enough.

 

[killdozzer]

The front USB on Rotel is either for BT dongle or for your mobile devices. NAD has BT and the B type of USB which can be used to connect your PC. It also has the Sub Out and Bass EQ settings.

 

[Jeremy257]

The speakers I purchased for this setup are Revel Concerta2 M16 bookshelves. They are 6 ohm speakers that have an 86db sensitivity rating. I will occasionally want to listen to louder levels. The Revels will be in the living room which is really a big open space to the dining area and kitchen with a 16' ceiling. I would imagine with the impedance and sensitivity these speakers are harder to drive?

I do not really care about the BT or USB capabilities. The optical in will be the input I use for this set up.

You can purchase the NAD D 3020 new for $399 from a lot places including Amazon.

 

[Jeremy257]

Ok, I see that the recommended power for these speakers are 50-120wpc. Which I'm guessing means that even the Rotel is probably not enough ooomph.

 

[lovinthehd]

Recommended power levels aren't all that useful without consideration of distance from the speakers or spl. The sensitivity spec is more useful. Perhaps try using an spl calculator to estimate your needs. The speakers' measurements and comments you can review here http://www.audioholics.com/bookshelf-speaker-reviews/revel-concerta2-m16/measurements

 

[Jeremy257]

Recommended power levels aren't all that useful without consideration of distance from the speakers or spl. The sensitivity spec is more useful. Perhaps try using an spl calculator to estimate your needs. The speakers' measurements and comments you can review here http://www.audioholics.com/bookshelf-speaker-reviews/revel-concerta2-m16/measurements

Thank you for this. It would appear that the Rotel should definitely be able to handle these speakers and be able to produce plenty of volume while doing so.

 

[killdozzer]

Thank you for this. It would appear that the Rotel should definitely be able to handle these speakers and be able to produce plenty of volume while doing so.

I agree. Rated 6Ohm and you saying you have a large/largish room and would like some SPL from time to time, I'd pick Rotel between the two. (I wouldn't even mind more power, something like 80-90Wpch into 8Ohm, but OK, you said you want to keep it under or around 400$.

You're right, you'll use optical or RCA, depending on the outs on your source.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

OK, so nobody's going to hijack this thread and recommend the $800 95WPC Denon X2300 on sale for $415 brand new on Amazon?

https://www.amazon.com/Denon-AVR-X2300W-Channel-Receiver-Bluetooth/dp/B01E69LWWA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1510061710&sr=8-1&keywords=Denon+X2300&dpID=41hHiDRvTaL&preST=_SX300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch

 

[killdozzer]

I gave it a slight push in that direction saying he could use more power. I was waiting for momentum.

 

[Jeremy257]

I've got a Denon AVR on my main system. It's nice. I recently listened to a Mirantz AVR 7xxx and the Rotel RA-12 back and forth driving the same speakers (B&W 702 S2) and to my ears the Rotel produced much better sound. Sound and vision benched the Rotel at 77 wpc rms into 8ohm and 150 into 4 ohm (.1%hd). Given that I would have to think it will be putting out over 100 into 6 ohm which I'm hoping will suffice.

 

[Jeremy257]

I'd definitely rather have the RA-14 or the NAD C 368 but I don't want to pay that much.

 

[killdozzer]

Your ears being all that matters, I'd say have some beautiful audio moments with what ever you choose.

But

much better sound.

would imply your Marantz might have not been set to its best performance. Marantz should not fall behind, and certainly not much behind Rotel.

This doesn't really matter if you found what you're looking for.

 

[Jeremy257]

Your ears being all that matters, I'd say have some beautiful audio moments with what ever you choose.

But

would imply your Marantz might have not been set to its best performance. Marantz should not fall behind, and certainly not much behind Rotel.

This doesn't really matter if you found what you're looking for.

It was at a magnolia listening so who knows how the Mirantz was set up. It was an extremely expensive AVR and at the time I was really just listening to speakers, not auditioning amplification. I was just looking for something in that $400 dollar range that has optical input to a decent DAC and the Rotel was a good deal (I purchased it last night for $425). I wanted the 3020 for it's small footprint but given your guidance I realize it just didn't have enough power. To be honest I stupidly didn't even think about multi channel options. This setup will primarily be used for background music upstairs by my wife. I'll have the Chromecast audio plugged in to the optical and she can just tell the Google home what to play. If the 320kbps stream doesn't sound good enough I can always switch to title. Thanks for the feedback for sure because I would have bought that small NAD and I'm sure I would have been disappointed.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I've got a Denon AVR on my main system. It's nice. I recently listened to a Mirantz AVR 7xxx and the Rotel RA-12 back and forth driving the same speakers (B&W 702 S2) and to my ears the Rotel produced much better sound. Sound and vision benched the Rotel at 77 wpc rms into 8ohm and 150 into 4 ohm (.1%hd). Given that I would have to think it will be putting out over 100 into 6 ohm which I'm hoping will suffice.

First and foremost, I am definitely not trying to convince you to just buy AVR. It's a hobby, and there are other factors involved. Some people just like the fact of owning NAD or Rotel better. Nothing wrong with that.

This is just purely academic for conversation only.

I've owned and listened to many high-end gears (Mark Levinson, Bryston, McIntosh, Anthem, NAD, Rotel, Classe, etc).

Bias is a huge, especially when the comparison is not level-matched and blind.

Just for fun, let's compare the Rotel A12 vs Marantz SR5009 (equivalent to Denon X2300).

Rotel:
90W/8-ohm, 165W/4-ohm x 2Ch/1% THD, Crosstalk –63dB, SNR 99 dBrA.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/rotel-a12-integrated-amplifier-review-test-bench

Marantz/Denon:
130W/8-ohm, 204W/4-ohm x 2Ch/1% THD, Crosstalk –83dB, SNR 104 dBrA.
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/marantz-sr5009-av-receiver-review-test-bench


Unlike speakers, the measurements for electronics don't lie.

You can see how the Marantz/Denon outperformed the Rotel in every category.

Really, the crosstalk and SNR of the Rotel is worse than a $300 Yamaha V377 (Crosstalk –77dB, SNR 111 dBrA).

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/yamaha-rx-v377-av-receiver-test-bench#HqXduU8X1xgeam8U.99

 

[Jeremy257]

Nice. I do like my Denon AVR very much. It's drives my main system very, very well. In all honesty, I probably should have just gone with the Onkyo A-9050 brand new for $320.

 

[Verdinut]

I'd recommend the Yamaha A-S301 which is a 70+Watts/Ch at 6 ohms integrated amp which is well built. It has very good specs and also has digital inputs with inboard DAC, an interesting loudness control, separate bass and treble controls, and as a +, a subwoofer output.

IMHO, it has better looks than the Rotel. Amazon has it for only $350.

To give you an idea about the quality of construction, Audioholics has reviewed the top amplifier in that Series:
http://www.audioholics.com/amplifier-reviews/yamaha-a-s801-amplifier-review

 

[Jeremy257]

I'd recommend the Yamaha A-S301 which is a 70+Watts/Ch at 6 ohms integrated amp which is well built. It has very good specs and also has digital inputs with inboard DAC, an interesting loudness control, separate bass and treble controls, and as a +, a subwoofer output.

IMHO, it has better looks than the Rotel. Amazon has it for only $350.

To give you an idea about the quality of construction, Audioholics has reviewed the top amplifier in that Series:
http://www.audioholics.com/amplifier-reviews/yamaha-a-s801-amplifier-review

That looks like a great product at a nice price point.

 

[Jeremy257]

Well folks. Of course, you were correct. First, those Revel speakers sound fantastic... but a bit more power in that huge open space wouldn't be all too bad. I am not accustomed to turning up my equipment. My Denon AVR receiver has never been turned up past 50% which makes my floor standing speakers in the basement deafeningly loud. The Rotel driving those bookshelves in that big open space.. at 75% (highest I've dared run it) is loud enough but not as loud as I expected. A lot of it has to do with the space it's trying to fill though. The living room, dining room and kitchen is really one big open space with the lr and dr having a 16 foot ceiling. Nonetheless the Rotel driving 6 ohm speakers is putting out a little over 110wpc. I think I'll probably upgrade to something that can get them to 150wpc. I know that won't effect volume that much but it should help a little and I dare not put more power than that to those bookshelves.