DYNAUDIO C4 VS B&W 800 D3

[TheWarrior]

What cheap plastic parts?

https://www.stereophile.com/content/dynaudio-confidence-c4-loudspeaker-measurements

It's explained between Fig 1 and 2. The cabinet is literally coloring the sound of those speakers.

 

[highfigh]

https://www.stereophile.com/content/dynaudio-confidence-c4-loudspeaker-measurements

It's explained between Fig 1 and 2. The cabinet is literally coloring the sound of those speakers.

What cabinet DOESN'T color the sound?

I think the conclusion says a lot- also, the paragraph about the resonances stated that it's not very audible (paraphrased).

Are you basing your comment by just a snapshot of the review? I read all of it and didn't see anything that makes me think the reviewer heard anything he didn't like.

 

[TheWarrior]

What cabinet DOESN'T color the sound?

I think the conclusion says a lot- also, the paragraph about the resonances stated that it's not very audible (paraphrased).

Are you basing your comment by just a snapshot of the review? I read all of it and didn't see anything that makes me think the reviewer heard anything he didn't like.

The cabinet should not color the sound in any way, if neutral and accurate reproduction is the goal.

Just like with the B&W's, at this price point, that speaker should sound as transparent as possible. The review clearly states that the resonances of the cabinet are coloring the sound.

Of these options, I see the Revel as the only respectable performer, based on these measurements.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...one big advantage I noticed for the 802D2 over the Salon2 over the years is that the 802D2s were much more tolerant of near-wall placement than the Salon2s...

I think the fact that the Salon2's F3 is 22Hz and the 802D3's F3 is 35Hz might have something to do with it also.

Some people may even call this "over-powering" bass on many full-range towers that are placed in smaller rooms and especially closer to walls.

If the speaker is lighter on the bass like the 802D3, it may seem less "over-powering".

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I can't find 800 D3 measurements, anywhere.

Stereophile only has the 802D3 for now. But based on previous years, the D1 vs D2 vs D3 measurements look always identical. Even JA made that statement last year when he reviewed the 800D2 on Stereophile.

So based on this and the 802D3 this year, there is absolutely no reason to suspect that the 800D3 will measure significantly different than the 800D2 vs 800D1, except maybe the boost around 9-11kHz is +6dB, instead of +5dB and +4dB.

It seems extremely funny when I see anyone say that the D3, D2, and D1 sound significantly different when every single D1, D2, and D3 have measured almost identical from 200Hz-10kHz on Stereophile.

Like someone already mentioned, if only the comparisons were double-blind to remove bias....

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Now I will say this about B&W 800 vs Revel Salon.

When I owned both 802D2 and Salon2, I liked the sound of both of them. From 200Hz-10kHz, I would say I liked them equally, even though the Salon2 measured a lot better overall.

For bass, I definitely preferred the Salon2 over the 802D2. I thought the Salon2's bass with tight and impactful, while the bass on the 802D2 was lacking a bit. But I'm sure the 800's bass will be a lot more than the 802's.

For aesthetic, I preferred the 802D2 over the Salon2. I also prefer the aesthetic of the 802D2 over the 802D3.

For "pride of ownership", I also preferred the 802D2. Why?

I feel the aesthetic shape of the 802D2 cost more.

I also know that Diamond tweeters cost about $4K-$6K per pair and Beryllium tweeters cost about $500-1,000 per pair.

The Salon2 received "Speaker of the Year" awards and measured a lot better, but I just felt like I got more for my money with the 802D2.

 

[Irvrobinson]

For aesthetic, I preferred the 802D2 over the Salon2.

For "pride of ownership", I also preferred the 802D2.

I agree. Every time I see a recent B&W 800 or 802 in person I get home and am unhappy with the fit and finish of the Revels.

It seems like Revel spent their production budget for the Ultima2s on custom drivers, and at least for the Salon2, a heroic set of crossovers.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I agree. Every time I see a recent B&W 800 or 802 in person I get home and am unhappy with the fit and finish of the Revels.

It seems like Revel spent their production budget for the Ultima2s on custom drivers, and at least for the Salon2, a heroic set of crossovers.

I guess you can't win them all.

On one hand, you have a speaker of the year with great measurements and sound (Salon2).

On the other hand, you have a more exotic speaker (that although may not have equally great measurements) also sound pretty good (802D2).

So how do you decide between these two $22K speakers?

Better measurement/better bass vs. more exotic aesthetics and diamond tweeters that cost $4-6K?

 

[Irvrobinson]

So how do you decide between these two $22K speakers?

First of all, the Salon2s blew me away the first time I heard them at a dealer. I was amazed at how much I liked them. They reminded me of Quad electrostatics, but with massive output and very good sub-60Hz bass. I never heard a B&W speaker that made me feel that way. The Revels were also better reproducers of my own live recordings. In fact, the Revels struck me as weird. They ostensibly were more laid back than the B&W 800D1s, yet they seemed to reveal more nuance. It was an easy choice. Electrostatics and a set of used Dunlavy SC-Vs were the competition, as I remember. (The SC-Vs were too big for my room, and the Revel bested them when reproducing cymbals.)

 

[KenM10759]

What? All this and no mention of KEF Blade or Blade 2?



Amazing speaker.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

What? All this and no mention of KEF Blade or Blade 2?



Amazing speaker.

I was going to mention KEF, but I figured someone else will eventually.

However, I am disappointed that for $25K or more, KEF doesn't use Diamond or at least Beryllium drivers.

Even their $200K Muon does have Diamond or Beryllium. What's up with that?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

First of all, the Salon2s blew me away the first time I heard them at a dealer. I was amazed at how much I liked them. They reminded me of Quad electrostatics, but with massive output and very good sub-60Hz bass. I never heard a B&W speaker that made me feel that way. The Revels were also better reproducers of my own live recordings. In fact, the Revels struck me as weird. They ostensibly were more laid back than the B&W 800D1s, yet they seemed to reveal more nuance. It was an easy choice. Electrostatics and a set of used Dunlavy SC-Vs were the competition, as I remember. (The SC-Vs were too big for my room, and the Revel bested them when reproducing cymbals.)

Let's put it this way. If they could put the Salon2 into the body of the 800D3 for $22K, it would be great.

Great aesthetics, exotic expensive diamond tweeters, great measurements, speaker of the year awards, and great sound.

Someone needs to convince Revel to use Diamond tweeters and make the Salon3 look like the 800D3.

 

[Irvrobinson]

What? All this and no mention of KEF Blade or Blade 2?



Amazing speaker.

I've never heard the Blade(s). My all-time favorite KEF was the 207/2, which I now understand is out of production. I forgot - that was another speaker I auditioned at the time I was buying the Revels. The KEFs seemed to have a plump upper bass, as I remember, and made a piano recording of mine seem like the piano was bigger than life. In retrospect, perhaps it was the auditioning room. Other than that one concern, they were awesome.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I've never heard the Blade(s). My all-time favorite KEF was the 207/2, which I now understand is out of production. I forgot - that was another speaker I auditioned at the time I was buying the Revels. The KEFs seemed to have a plump upper bass, as I remember, and made a piano recording of mine seem like the piano was bigger than life. In retrospect, perhaps it was the auditioning room. Other than that one concern, they were awesome.

I also liked the KEF 207/2 a lot. I almost bought them back then, but I ran out of room.

I think KEF made a mistake by discontinuing the 207/2. I think they should have upgraded the 207/2 to Beryllium or Diamond tweeter.

 

[KenM10759]

I've heard the Blade 2, never heard the 207 or 207/2. One thing I can say is that the Blade 2, more than any speaker I've ever heard, the sound doesn't come from the speaker. It's just "there" creating a soundstage completely independent of the speakers. Incredible.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I've heard the Blade 2, never heard the 207 or 207/2. One thing I can say is that the Blade 2, more than any speaker I've ever heard, the sound doesn't come from the speaker. It's just "there" creating a soundstage completely independent of the speakers. Incredible.

Properly set up, away from side walls, a lot of modern speakers can pull off the disappearing act. Even the inexpensive Klipsch RF62-IIs in my HT system do that.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Properly set up, away from side walls, a lot of modern speakers can pull off the disappearing act. Even the inexpensive Klipsch RF62-IIs in my HT system do that.

Yeah. Agreed. No big deal to me.

I think the Linkwitz Orion is supposed to have one of the biggest soundstage with everything "disappearing" and all that too.

No big deal.

 

[PENG]

What? All this and no mention of KEF Blade or Blade 2?



Amazing speaker.

I have not auditioned the D2 and D3, but I definitely felt the Blades (the original Blade) sounded better than the D. The B&W looks much better, obviously that's my subjective opinion.

 

[Beave]

I can't find 800 D3 measurements, anywhere. And since I don't have photo hosting right now, we'll have to do it one at a time:

Revel Salon2 vs B&W 800 D2

Fig 1 Impedance and phase - The Revel is smooth and controlled, the B&W is literally off the chart

Fig 2 is not comparable due differing measurement techniques

Fig 3 shows a very different recipe for sound between the two, the B&W woofers operate very low, only, with widely varying amplitudes after each cross over.

Fig 4 From 200 hz and up, the B&W varies by as much as 8 dB, whereas the Revel operates in a narrow 2.5 dB range. That's a HUGE difference when talking $30k+

Fig 5 and 6 are pretty self explanatory. One speaker is smooth, one is not.

CTA 2034 data would further explain the off axis issues of the B&W's in the First Reflections Directivity Index. Any pair I've heard, including these, had a different sound as I changed seats. The on axis sound was very pleasant, but I take issue with speakers in this price bracket that are so narrow in dispersion as to sound different to each listener on the same couch. The need to keep that stylized baffle-less tweeter and oversized midrange will forever be the B&W's downfall.

What is the significance of the impedance and phase being "smooth and controlled" vs. "literally off the chart?"

Don't the Revel woofers operate even lower than the B&W woofers?

 

[Beave]

https://www.stereophile.com/content/dynaudio-confidence-c4-loudspeaker-measurements

It's explained between Fig 1 and 2. The cabinet is literally coloring the sound of those speakers.

Floyd Toole himself has commented that JA's cabinet resonance measurements are very misleading and do not reflect the audibility of said cabinet resonances.