DYNAUDIO C4 VS B&W 800 D3

[T K Varghese]

Hello Friends,

1. I am from Mumbai, India and am planning to upgrade my present system to the following:-

(a) Speakers - Dynaudio C4s or B&W 800 D3.

(b) Power Amp - Mcintosh 452 or Mcintosh 601 (Monoblocs).

(c) Pre Amp - Mcintosh C 52.

(d) CD Player - SA 8005.

(e) Cables, Power and DAC - Not decided.

(f) Turn Table - In the Future.

2. Please advise me whether I should go for Dynaudio C4 or B&W 800 D3. I have heard both speakers but on different setups as the dealers in Mumbai are different. I liked both but B&Ws are costlier. Also if I choose B&W, should I go for Mcintosh 601 Monoblocs instead of Mcintosh 452 Amp? I listen to Rock, Folk, Country and may be mix of other music.

Thanking You All

Regards,
T. K. Varghese

 

[TLS Guy]

Welcome to the forum.

If funds permit, I would recommend the B & W 800 D3.

A very good friend has a pair. They are quite the best commercial speaker I have yet met. I have had a chance to measure them., and of course listen to them extensively.

I have not heard those Dynaudio speakers. However I'm yet to hear a Dynaudio speaker I did not like.

Those Dynaudio speakers use first order crossovers which can create issues of sweet spots and difficult room issues. Having said that lower order crossovers do have a lot to recommend them.

The lower end of the B & Ws goes close to an octave lower then the Dynaudios. The B & W speakers definitely do not need a subwoofer. The bass is deep and clean.

Unlike previous speakers in the 80 series the 800 D 3s are not a difficult load, and you do not need the expense of Monoblocks. My friend is powering them with a dual channel MAC 400 watts per channel.

This is my measurement of the impedance and phase angles of the 800 D3.

This is the frequency response on and off axis. Blue line is on axis, black line is 90 degrees off axis,

Waterfall and impulse response.

These are excellent results.

You won't go wrong with the 800 D3. If you can afford them go for it. They are an astoundingly good speaker.

 

[T K Varghese]

Thanks a lot. Your feedback has been really valuable and the details you have enumerated about B&Ws are quite informative and useful. I will definitely keep you advise in mind before deciding. Thank you.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I'm going to throw a wrench into the mix and state that Salk Soundscape 8 are by far best speakers I ever heard, including (older) b&w 800 seriers and even top end stuff like Wilson audio.

 

[lovinthehd]

I'm going to throw a wrench into the mix and state that Salk Soundscape 8 are by far best speakers I ever heard, including (older) b&w 800 seriers and even top end stuff like Wilson audio.

But available in India could be an issue....

 

[shadyJ]

I wonder if JBL Synthesis or Revel is available?

 

[T K Varghese]

Sal Soundscape 8 is not available here. But JBL and Revels are available. I will definitely try out them before deciding. Thanks a lot for the valuable feed back.

 

[TheWarrior]

Sal Soundscape 8 is not available here. But JBL and Revels are available. I will definitely try out them before deciding. Thanks a lot for the valuable feed back.

B&W's are great, until you start moving around or changing seats. A baffle-less tweeter combined with an oversized midrange creates a huge bump in directivity making it difficult to get the same sounds to listeners on the same couch.

I would spend some time with JBL Synthesis and Revel products!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Stereophile FR of the $22,000 B&W 802 D3.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/bowers-wilkins-802-d3-diamond-loudspeaker-measurements


Stereophile FR of the $22,000 Revel Salon 2.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/revel-ultima-salon2-loudspeaker-measurements

Stereophile FR of the Dynaudio C4.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/dynaudio-confidence-c4-loudspeaker-measurements

I think the Revel and Dynaudio have better on-axis and off-axis FR measurements than the B&W.

Now just for fun, let's compare the 802D3 vs the 800D2 vs 802D1.

Stereophile B&W 802 D3:
https://www.stereophile.com/content/bowers-wilkins-802-d3-diamond-loudspeaker-measurements

Stereophile B&W 800 D2:
https://www.stereophile.com/content/bampw-800-diamond-loudspeaker-measurements

Stereophile B&W 802 D1:
https://www.stereophile.com/content/bw-802d-loudspeaker-measurements

Anyone notice all 3 FR graphs look very similar? There is a bump around the 10kHz area. The 802D1 has ~ +4dB bump, while the 800D2 has a ~ +5dB bump, and 802D3 has a ~ +6dB bump.

It seems this treble bump is getting bigger and bigger with each new generation of D tweeter.

So I guess it does make sense a little bit when people say the D2 sounds better than the D1 and the D3 sounds better than the D2. It's because the treble keeps getting hotter and hotter.

 

[TheWarrior]

Stereophile FR of the $22,000 B&W 802 D3.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/bowers-wilkins-802-d3-diamond-loudspeaker-measurements


Stereophile FR of the $22,000 Revel Salon 2.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/revel-ultima-salon2-loudspeaker-measurements

Stereophile FR of the Dynaudio C4.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/dynaudio-confidence-c4-loudspeaker-measurements

I think the Revel and Dynaudio have better on-axis and off-axis FR measurements than the B&W.

Now just for fun, let's compare the 802D3 vs the 800D2 vs 802D1.

Stereophile B&W 802 D3:
https://www.stereophile.com/content/bowers-wilkins-802-d3-diamond-loudspeaker-measurements

Stereophile B&W 800 D2:
https://www.stereophile.com/content/bampw-800-diamond-loudspeaker-measurements

Stereophile B&W 802 D1:
https://www.stereophile.com/content/bw-802d-loudspeaker-measurements

Anyone notice all 3 FR graphs look very similar? There is a bump around the 10kHz area. The 802D1 has ~ +4dB bump, while the 800D2 has a ~ +5dB bump, and 802D3 has a ~ +6dB bump.

It seems this treble bump is getting bigger and bigger with each new generation of D tweeter.

The B&W shows its off axis and directivity issues with the large suck outs that are measured. The Dynaudio has issues from its cheap plastic parts vibrating.

I don't think a listening session is even needed after seeing these graphs!

 

[TLS Guy]

The B&W shows its off axis and directivity issues with the large suck outs that are measured. The Dynaudio has issues from its cheap plastic parts vibrating.

I don't think a listening session is even needed after seeing these graphs!

I think so.

The Phil's 800 D3 sound very different from his 800 Ds he had previously.

The 800 Ds did beam and did sound a little fierce in the HF.

The D3 do not beam and sound very similar wherever you are in the room.

My measurements actually agree with the sonic performance of these speakers more than the Stereophile measurements do. The Ds could never produce a sound stage behind the speakers. The D3 produce a sound stage that is very deep.

If anything the D3s are a fraction retiring, which is a slight fault I do not object to. So I think the slight FR depression across 5 KHz is real. That correlated well with my listening session.

The off axis response is good apart from that 90 degree off axis suck out at 1.8 KHz.

I did have a chance to hear the Revel Salon a few years back. I did not like he bass. For me it was nearly tight enough. You can see evidence of that in the impulse response.

 

[T K Varghese]

Thanks a lot for the advise. The explanation and details that you all have enumerated are extremely useful. It will definitely be useful for me to take a decision. I will also try out Revel and JBL. Grateful for all these inputs.

 

[<eargiant]

Everything comes down to preference but the 800 series (2 & 3) are fantastic speakers. No graph will ever come close to truly conveying how well they can reproduce recorded music to someone that hasn't heard them and lived with them for a while. I'll probably never look at another Brand/Model because they check all the boxes for me. Keepers for sure.

They definitely know what they are doing at Steyning.

 

[Beave]

I think so.

The Phil's 800 D3 sound very different from his 800 Ds he had previously.

The 800 Ds did beam and did sound a little fierce in the HF.

The D3 do not beam and sound very similar wherever you are in the room.

My measurements actually agree with the sonic performance of these speakers more than the Stereophile measurements do. The Ds could never produce a sound stage behind the speakers. The D3 produce a sound stage that is very deep.

What measurements account for or show soundstage depth?

If anything the D3s are a fraction retiring, which is a slight fault I do not object to. So I think the slight FR depression across 5 KHz is real. That correlated well with my listening session.

The off axis response is good apart from that 90 degree off axis suck out at 1.8 KHz.

I did have a chance to hear the Revel Salon a few years back. I did not like he bass. For me it was nearly tight enough. You can see evidence of that in the impulse response.

Do you mean the step response? Wouldn't a longer window be needed to see any useful info about any ringing in the bass?

 

[Beave]

Everything comes down to preference but the 800 series (2 & 3) are fantastic speakers. No graph will ever come close to truly conveying how well they can reproduce recorded music to someone that hasn't heard them and lived with them for a while. I'll probably never look at another Brand/Model because they check all the boxes for me. Keepers for sure.

They definitely know what they are doing at Steyning.

I wonder how they'd do at something like Harman's listening lab, where the listener can't see the speaker(s).

 

[Dennis Murphy]

Welcome to the forum.

If funds permit, I would recommend the B & W 800 D3.

A very good friend has a pair. They are quite the best commercial speaker I have yet met. I have had a chance to measure them., and of course listen to them extensively.

I have not heard those Dynaudio speakers. However I'm yet to hear a Dynaudio speaker I did not like.

Those Dynaudio speakers use first order crossovers which can create issues of sweet spots and difficult room issues. Having said that lower order crossovers do have a lot to recommend them.

The lower end of the B & Ws goes close to an octave lower then the Dynaudios. The B & W speakers definitely do not need a subwoofer. The bass is deep and clean.

Unlike previous speakers in the 80 series the 800 D 3s are not a difficult load, and you do not need the expense of Monoblocks. My friend is powering them with a dual channel MAC 400 watts per channel.

This is my measurement of the impedance and phase angles of the 800 D3.

This is the frequency response on and off axis. Blue line is on axis, black line is 90 degrees off axis,

Waterfall and impulse response.

These are excellent results.

You won't go wrong with the 800 D3. If you can afford them go for it. They are an astoundingly good speaker.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

Compared with the many measurements I've taken with Omni Mic (and the very similar Praxis), these are good but hardly outstanding results. In particular, the on-axis response barely fits in a 5 dB window, and it's the early arrival sounds that dominate a speaker's sonic character unless the off-axis response is really ragged.

 

[Irvrobinson]

So I guess it does make sense a little bit when people say the D2 sounds better than the D1 and the D3 sounds better than the D2. It's because the treble keeps getting hotter and hotter.

I've had a lot of listening experiences with the 800D1/D2 and the 802D1/D2, and I've measured two different systems with the 802D2s, and I consistently had the impression that the D1/D2 generations were colored in the upper mids. The entire treble range always measured hot by 2-3db in the two rooms I had the OmniMic in, and that was apparent during replay of my own recordings, but it should be noted that both owners very much liked it that way. The 802D2 owners didn't like my Salon2 system (in my previous home), with comments rounding to a conclusion that it lacked excitement and presence. You like what you like. My sense is that B&W knows its target market and voices its speakers appropriately.

I'm anxious to hear the D3 version. I may get a chance in a couple of weeks.

I also wonder if Revel has surreptitiously tweaked the Salon2 since I bought my pair in 2011. I haven't heard a newer pair to compare.

BTW, one big advantage I noticed for the 802D2 over the Salon2 over the years is that the 802D2s were much more tolerant of near-wall placement than the Salon2s, especially the back wall. Place Salon2s less than four feet from the back wall and the bass is too fat. (Yes, some people like it that way.) The 802D2s measured pretty well in the bass, though in both systems they were placed only about two feet from the back wall. To a lot of people that can be a big advantage in a real system.

 

[highfigh]

The B&W shows its off axis and directivity issues with the large suck outs that are measured. The Dynaudio has issues from its cheap plastic parts vibrating.

I don't think a listening session is even needed after seeing these graphs!

What cheap plastic parts?

 

[TheWarrior]

I think so.

The Phil's 800 D3 sound very different from his 800 Ds he had previously.

The 800 Ds did beam and did sound a little fierce in the HF.

The D3 do not beam and sound very similar wherever you are in the room.

My measurements actually agree with the sonic performance of these speakers more than the Stereophile measurements do. The Ds could never produce a sound stage behind the speakers. The D3 produce a sound stage that is very deep.

If anything the D3s are a fraction retiring, which is a slight fault I do not object to. So I think the slight FR depression across 5 KHz is real. That correlated well with my listening session.

The off axis response is good apart from that 90 degree off axis suck out at 1.8 KHz.

I did have a chance to hear the Revel Salon a few years back. I did not like he bass. For me it was nearly tight enough. You can see evidence of that in the impulse response.

I can't find 800 D3 measurements, anywhere. And since I don't have photo hosting right now, we'll have to do it one at a time:

Revel Salon2 vs B&W 800 D2

Fig 1 Impedance and phase - The Revel is smooth and controlled, the B&W is literally off the chart

Fig 2 is not comparable due differing measurement techniques

Fig 3 shows a very different recipe for sound between the two, the B&W woofers operate very low, only, with widely varying amplitudes after each cross over.

Fig 4 From 200 hz and up, the B&W varies by as much as 8 dB, whereas the Revel operates in a narrow 2.5 dB range. That's a HUGE difference when talking $30k+

Fig 5 and 6 are pretty self explanatory. One speaker is smooth, one is not.

CTA 2034 data would further explain the off axis issues of the B&W's in the First Reflections Directivity Index. Any pair I've heard, including these, had a different sound as I changed seats. The on axis sound was very pleasant, but I take issue with speakers in this price bracket that are so narrow in dispersion as to sound different to each listener on the same couch. The need to keep that stylized baffle-less tweeter and oversized midrange will forever be the B&W's downfall.